Questions

Elizabeth · 10 May 2007

undrentide said:
Indeed keigo is very confusing, even for the natives!
くれる ─ くださる honorific for the person you're talking about
もらう ─ いただく humbing yourself to lower than the person you're talking about.

訂正してくれてありがとうございます。前に、よく習いましたが、
もうだいぶ忘れてしまいましたよね。普段使う機会もないですからね。

そして、速く書くことで、文章を間違ったり、自分が混乱してしまうと他人に理解して
もらえません。もちろん皆さんは分かって下さるようで、私は感動します。

「教えてもらう先生」より、「教えてくれる先生」は、もっとくだけた言い方だといえないですね。

教えてもらう先生」と「教えてくれる先生」の違いは、単に、Teacher that is received from, from the outgroup perspective/ Teacher that gives, receiver is speaker or someone close to them, from the ingroup perspective の違いですからね。

If the speaker is the teacher or one identified with him 「教えてあげる先生」という風になるかな。。。

tanhql · 10 May 2007

説明してくれてありがとう。

by the way, いただく on it's own means 'receive', right? it's not a humble when used this way, right?

can someone explain this, specifically the transitive/intransitive verbs?

undrentide · 10 May 2007

tanhql said:
説明してくれてありがとう。

by the way, いただく on it's own means 'receive', right? it's not a humble when used this way, right?

It is the same, the word いただく itself is keigo for もらう.
It makes the giver higher and the receiver humble.

先生から本をもらった。
先生から本をいただいた。

tanhql · 10 May 2007

四つの宝は私が頂いた
最後の一つ、燕の子安貝、どちらが先に手に入れるか
わたしと勝負しなさい

this was quoted from a letter from an anime. my question is if 頂いた is humble, wouldn't 入れるか and 勝負しなさい be ambiguously used , since both are informal?

and can someone explain this? it appears from the webpage:
助けられた = 助かった
決められた = 決まった
閉められた = 閉まった

so what about the transitive and intransitive part?

tanhql · 12 May 2007

誰か教えてくれませんか。どうもありがとう。

Elizabeth · 12 May 2007

tanhql said:
四つの宝は私が頂いた
最後の一つ、燕の子安貝、どちらが先に手に入れるか
わたしと勝負しなさい
this was quoted from a letter from an anime. my question is if 頂いた is humble, wouldn't 入れるか and 勝負しなさい be ambiguously used , since both are informal

頂いた indicates a relationship to the person the treasures were received from, not who is being addressed in the present...so I really don't get your question.

it appears from the webpage:
助けられた = 助かった
決められた = 決まった
閉められた = 閉まった
so what about the transitive and intransitive part?

My sense is that the intransitive plain past form is more common than the passive -- again, provided that is what you are asking. :?

tanhql · 12 May 2007

Elizabeth said:
頂いた indicates a relationship to the person the treasures were received from, not who is being addressed in the present...so I really don't get your question.

in case you need to know the context, the anime the letter was from:

the letter appeared at around 4 minutes.

so '私たちが助かった' is used more than '私たちが助けられた'? so is ドアが閉まった than ドアが閉められた?

epigene · 12 May 2007

tanhql said:
四つの宝は私が頂いた
最後の一つ、燕の子安貝、どちらが先に手に入れるか
わたしと勝負しなさい
this was quoted from a letter from an anime. my question is if 頂いた is humble, wouldn't 入れるか and 勝負しなさい be ambiguously used , since both are informal?

頂く is certainly humble form but has extended in usage to mean "get (in gamble, game, etc.)" with hint of courtesy to the loser(s).

An example of this usage is:
このゲームはいただき！ (I'm winning this game--this does not mean that you are "getting" the game as an object)

入れる is just part of the phrase 手に入れる (get; obtain)
手に入れる and 勝負しなさい are not in humble form because the outcome of the race (of getting the treasure) is still unknown (i.e., no need to show courtesy).

and can someone explain this? it appears from the webpage:
助けられた = 助かった
決められた = 決まった
閉められた = 閉まった
so what about the transitive and intransitive part?

The difference between the two groups lies in the meaning.
助けられた、決められた、閉められた are used when the speaker is consciously aware of the known or unknown person/entity that performed the action--that "one had been saved by a person or persons," "decision had been made by someone" and "something was closed by somebody." It can also suggest that execution of the action in question was beyond the speaker's control.

Hence, the second group simply describes the action, with no mention or awareness of who executed the action.

Hope the explanation is good enough!

tanhql · 12 May 2007

説明してくれてありがとう。

それに、「手に入れる」は「手にする」と同じですか。

epigene · 13 May 2007

tanhql said:
それに、「手に入れる」は「手にする」と同じですか。

「手に入れる」と「手にする」は、「自分のものにする」という意味の時、同じように使えます。

ただ、微妙に違うところは、「手に入れる」は「自分のものでないものを、何かの方法で自分のものにする」という意味で使いますが、「手にする」は、方法とは関係なく、自分のものなったという状態を指すと思います。

The two can be used synonymously in most cases, I think.

If you're looking for delicate difference between the two, "te ni ireru" implies "obtaining an object by employing some means (specified or otherwise in context)," while "te ni suru" describes only "obtaining an object" without mention of means or effort to get it.

Questions

Elizabeth

先輩

tanhql

日本語の学生

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

tanhql

日本語の学生

tanhql

日本語の学生

Elizabeth

先輩

tanhql

日本語の学生

epigene

相変わらず不束者です

tanhql

日本語の学生

epigene

相変わらず不束者です

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