Questions on 上げる / くれる

pacerier · 9 Apr 2010

hi all, i was having a bit of problem with the words 上げる / くれる. i was wondering if its acceptable to use 上げる when someone gives something to my family member, or must it be in くれる? e.g:
(1) ボブは妹にプレゼントを上げた
(2) ボブは妹にプレゼントをくれた

also, i came across this sentence somewhere: 友達が私に教えてくれた。
From what i know, this sentence means "friend gave me favour of teaching me". How do i modify it along the lines of "friend gave my father favour of teaching me (i mean something like the friend still teaches me, but the favour is not for me, its for my father)".

and is it true that もらう is not used when the giver is me? however what if i were to say friend received something from me, if so can i use もらう?
(on a side note, is it ok if we use the kanji 貰う for もらう)

Toritoribe · 9 Apr 2010

pacerier said:
hi all, i was having a bit of problem with the words 上げる / くれる. i was wondering if its acceptable to use 上げる when someone gives something to my family member, or must it be in くれる? e.g:
(1) ボブは妹にプレゼントを上げた
(2) ボブは妹にプレゼントをくれた

It must be くれる. #1 means "Bob gave the present to his sister", not the speaker's.

pacerier said:
also, i came across this sentence soemwhere: 友達が私に教えてくれた。
From what i know, this sentence means "friend gave me favour of teaching me". How do i modify it along the lines of "friend gave my father favour of teaching me (i mean something like the friend still teaches me, but the favour is not for me, its for my father)".

友達は父のために私に教えてくれた/教えた。

If it's not "my" benefit to be taught, くれる can't be used.

pacerier said:
and is it true that もらう is not used when the giver is me?

Basically, yes.

pacerier said:
however what if i were to say friend received something from me, if so can i use もらう?

No. It should be 友達にあげた or 友達がもらってくれた/受け取ってくれた.

pacerier said:
(on a side note, is it ok if we use the kanji 貰う for もらう)

As a verb, yes. もらう would be more common as an auxiliary verb(e.g. 買ってもらう), though.

The following thread might be somewhat helpful.
Revising over giving and receiving.

Elizabeth · 11 Apr 2010

pacerier said:
also, i came across this sentence soemwhere: 友達が私に教えてくれた。
From what i know, this sentence means "friend gave me favour of teaching me". How do i modify it along the lines of "friend gave my father favour of teaching me (i mean something like the friend still teaches me, but the favour is not for me, its for my father)".

"I was taught Japanese for the benefit of my father" is convoluted English but my first impression would be you are learning a skill in order to pass it on to your father (he will be the ultimate beneficiary). In any case, however the father benefits, くれた I suppose can be used when the listener/receiver is on your side or the party being identified with. So something alone these lines should be fine.

You taking to recipient/father : (誰かが / 先生が)お父さんを手伝ってくれた時にはお礼状を書いた方がいいね . (for example... ??)

Slightly more clearly in English: "The teacher was asked by my father to teach me Japanese"

先生はお父さんから/に私に教えてくれるように頼まれました。?? These passive ように sentences confuse the hell out of me, really. Is it お父さん acting on くれる which would be incorrect ? Not to mention an inappropriate intimacy towards the teacher ? lol

And 先生に私に教えてもらうように頼みました。??

Father speaking to sensei : (先生に)(Your name)に教えてもらってください. ??

(Your name)に教えてもらう/いただくようにお願いできないでしょうか。??

Toritoribe · 11 Apr 2010

Elizabeth said:
Slightly more clearly in English: "The teacher was asked by my father to teach me Japanese"

先生はお父さんから/に私に教えてくれるように頼まれました。?? These passive ように sentences confuse the hell out of me, really. Is it お父さん acting on くれる which would be incorrect ? Not to mention an inappropriate intimacy towards the teacher ? lol

先生は父から私に教えてくれるよう（に）頼まれました is correct. This くれる is towards "me", not the teacher.

Elizabeth said:
And 先生に私に教えてもらうように頼みました。??

It should be 父は先生に、私に教えてくれるよう頼みました.

Elizabeth said:
Father speaking to sensei : (先生に)(Your name)に教えてもらってください. ??

(Your name)に教えてもらう/いただくようにお願いできないでしょうか。??

Father speaking to sensei :
先生、(Your name)に教えてやって下さい。(a kind of humble expression)
(Your name)を教えて（やって）いただけない/ませんでしょうか

Elizabeth · 11 Apr 2010

Toritoribe said:
先生は父から私に教えてくれるよう（に）頼まれました is correct. This くれる is towards "me", not the teacher.
It should be 父は先生に、私に教えてくれるよう頼みました.

Oh, that makes sense now. At the core of the sentence is the relationship between father and me and 先生 could be anyone. (父は先生に、私に教えてくれといいました。)

But if the father was requesting lessons not on my behalf, but for himself it could be politely もらうよう頼みました ? Like 彼に写真を撮ってもらうよう頼みました ? I asked him to please take my picture. :?

pacerier · 11 Apr 2010

heys sorry to interrupt but i've got a few misunderstandings i'd wish to clarify

No. It should be 友達にあげた or 友達がもらってくれた/受け取ってくれた.

does that mean that no matter how we look at it, this sentence: (he received the watch from me): その時計は私からもらったのよ is wrong, and the correct one should be: その時計は私からもらってくれたのよ ?

Also, i was wondering does te-kureru give the "he's helping me out / he's doing me a favour" implication? if it doesn't, i was wondering what's the main difference between these 2 sentences:
(1) 私に教えてくれた (he taught me?)
(2) 私に教えた (he taught me?)

anyways does the te-morau give the "i had him do this for me / i made him do this for me" feeling? what may be the difference between these 2 sentences:
[私は]ボブに教えてもらった (i made Bob teach me?)
[私は]ボブに教えさせる(i made Bob teach me?)

epigene · 11 Apr 2010

Just my two cents on your post. (Can't follow the train of posts--too long for just one read!)

pacerier said:
It should be 友達にあげた or 友達がもらってくれた/受け取ってくれた.

It's a matter of point of view, which is very important in Japanese. The first one is more or less neutral (giving to a peer).
友達がもらってくれた/受け取ってくれた suggests gratitude on the speaker's side. The friend might have refused to receive it.

Also, i was wondering does te-kureru give the "he's helping me out / he's doing me a favour" implication? if it doesn't, i was wondering what's the main difference between these 2 sentences:
(1) 私に教えてくれた (he taught me?)
(2) 私に教えた (he taught me?)

Yes, it does. However, it is commonly used in situations between peers.
(2) is coercive in suggestion and is awkward when used in an ordinary situation.

anyways does the te-morau give the "i had him do this for me / i made him do this for me" feeling? what may be the difference between these 2 sentences:
[私は]ボブに教えてもらった (i made Bob teach me?)
[私は]ボブに教えさせる(i made Bob teach me?)

Yes, you're right.
The first is the common passive form of "I had Bob teach me/I learned from Bob." A sense of humility is essential when you're on the receiving end of any benefit.
The second one sounds like Bob is your slave.

masaegu · 11 Apr 2010

pacerier said:
hi all, i was having a bit of problem with the words 上げる / くれる. i was wondering if its acceptable to use 上げる when someone gives something to my family member, or must it be in くれる? e.g:
(1) ボブは妹にプレゼントを上げた
(2) ボブは妹にプレゼントをくれた
also, i came across this sentence somewhere: 友達が私に教えてくれた。
From what i know, this sentence means "friend gave me favour of teaching me". How do i modify it along the lines of "friend gave my father favour of teaching me (i mean something like the friend still teaches me, but the favour is not for me, its for my father)".
and is it true that もらう is not used when the giver is me? however what if i were to say friend received something from me, if so can i use もらう?
(on a side note, is it ok if we use the kanji 貰う for もらう)

Have any of the members here noticed that OP has been posting the exact same questions simultaneously on another Japan-related website? Is this acceptable for J-Ref? I wonder how the members who have been taking the time in answering the questions on J-ref would feel if they actually saw the other site.

このＯＰは他の日本関連のサイトにて多くの全く同じ質問をしてきているのですが、当サイトとしては問題はありませんか。ルール違反ではないとしても、モラル的にどうも納得できないのですが・・・

undrentide · 11 Apr 2010

?

masaegu said:
Have any of the members here noticed that OP has been posting the exact same questions simultaneously on another Japan-related website? Is this acceptable for J-Ref? I wonder how the members who have been taking the time in answering the questions on J-ref would feel if they actually saw the other site.

このＯＰは他の日本関連のサイトにて多くの全く同じ質問をしてきているのですが、当サイトとしては問題はありませんか。ルール違反ではないとしても、モラル的にどうも納得できないのですが・・・

I think it should be no problem as far as he does not post the same question within JREF.
To me trying to get answers from different people/perspective is not something against moral...?
If OP just post questions and never come back then it might be a problem but so far it's not the case and he just seems to be trying to learn.

epigene · 11 Apr 2010

undrentide said:
?

I think it should be no problem as far as he does not post the same question within JREF.
To me trying to get answers from different people/perspective is not something against moral...?
If OP just post questions and never come back then it might be a problem but so far it's not the case and he just seems to be trying to learn.:?

Yes, as far as JREF members are concerned, the thread may be useful for others who come asking the same or similar questions in the future. So, I have no qualms about it. I also think it is OK to ask various websites if you think you're not getting the right answer.

However, looking at the other websites where the OP pasted the same questions, I do question whether the OP has any sense of Netiquette or respect for the members, both here and elsewhere, who are trying their best to answer his questions.

Toritoribe · 11 Apr 2010

epigene said:
Yes, as far as JREF members are concerned, the thread may be useful for others who come asking the same or similar questions in the future. So, I have no qualms about it. I also think it is OK to ask various websites if you think you're not getting the right answer.
However, looking at the other websites where the OP pasted the same questions, I do question whether the OP has any sense of Netiquette or respect for the members, both here and elsewhere, who are trying their best to answer his questions.

Agreed. Not only the initial quoestion but even the response to the answers are the copy and past...

I wonder the OP really wants to learn Japanese or just to throw us random questions just like he once did.
koi / kitsui | Japan Forum

Elizabeth · 11 Apr 2010

Toritoribe said:
Agreed. Not only the initial question but even the response to the answers are the copy and past...

I wonder the OP really wants to learn Japanese or just to throw us random questions just like he once did.

These questions link back to multiple forums. The same is going on at japanforum.com I noticed myself only earlier yesterday. The difference is they only briefly complain about the hit and run tactics. OP seems to enjoy sitting back to observe them in their answers, so it's really quite extreme there if anyone dares to go.

some questions on numbers and particles - Page 12 - JapanForum.com

undrentide · 11 Apr 2010

Is he that bad?! Oh well...
(walking out of the door, shrugging my shoulders and rolling my eyes)

Elizabeth · 11 Apr 2010

undrentide said:
Is he that bad?! Oh well...
(walking out of the door, shrugging my shoulders and rolling my eyes)

Is there a word for that in Japanese ?

I like your attitude.

undrentide · 12 Apr 2010

Elizabeth said:
Is there a word for that in Japanese ?

I like your attitude.

Haha, thanks, Elizebeth san.
In Japanese? Hmmm... in a situation like this, I might say 「やれやれ（ため息）」.
Shrugging and rolling eyes are western gesture, after all.
(Oh, wait, haven't I left and closed the door behind me?! )

pacerier · 13 Apr 2010

its true that i'm asking the same questions in different places, but i only do that because i get different responses from different people and through that i can get a general feel of what the sentence / phrase / stuff really means. when the replies i get matches the replies i get from the other forums i will mark it as "its surely this way, no doubt" otherwise i will put a mental asterisk beside the question.

epigene said:
The first ([私は]ボブに教えてもらった) is the common passive form of "I had Bob teach me/I learned from Bob." A sense of humility is essential when you're on the receiving end of any benefit.
The second one ([私は]ボブに教えさせる) sounds like Bob is your slave.

oic, thanks for the reply. btw without a context, can [私は]ボブに教えさせる also mean "I let Bob teach me?"

Questions on 上げる / くれる

pacerier

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Elizabeth

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Elizabeth

先輩

pacerier

先輩

epigene

相変わらず不束者です

masaegu

先輩

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

epigene

相変わらず不束者です

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Elizabeth

先輩

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

Elizabeth

先輩

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

pacerier

先輩

Similar threads