Question "tari suru to"

protheus · 31 Mar 2007

If I say,
友達が来たりすると座る所もない
which of the following alternatives would match the meaning?

1. 友達がまえに来たことがありますが座る所がなかったんで、もし今度の機会にまたうちに来たら、困ります。

2. 友達が一回にもうちに来たことがないですが、もしたまたまに来たら、困ります。

One more question about "tari suru to":
Can I use this form in the spoken language?. Or is it a かたい言い方？

Is there any other alternative to tari suru to?

助けてもらえればありがたいです。

JimmySeal · 31 Mar 2007

Not really sure what you're asking here. Both sentences seem to convey the meaning of the first snippet, though I could be wrong.

I think you can use that expression in spoken language.

protheus · 31 Mar 2007

Thanks.

What Ｉ wanted to know is if that expression 友達が来たらすると、means by itself (I mean, "necessarily") that he/she has already been in my house before.

"When he comes to my house, there's no enough place to sit". ( ? )

Or

"If he would come..." , "if it were the case that he..... ?. ( ? )

Elizabeth · 31 Mar 2007

protheus said:
Thanks.
Thanks.

What Ｉ wanted to know is if that expression 友達が来たらすると、means by itself (I mean, "necessarily") that he/she has already been in my house before.

"When he comes to my house, there's no enough place to sit". ( ? )

Or

"If he would come..." , "if it were the case that he..... ?. ( ? )

Firstly, I believe the meaning is heard through the use of the particle と and not directly related to the tari suru form. と tends to be used for "when" rather than "if" outcomes and for conditions that occur repeatedly or invariably. Therefore I understand the differences in your Japanese examples and would say it is closer to sentence ＃１．

友達が来たりすると also sounds better to me as 友達がくると unless there are analogous activities to "coming" (doing other things like....). The fact of not having a place to sit may be rather limited to the friend first coming, though..

Glenn · 31 Mar 2007

Elizabeth said:
友達が来たりすると also sounds better to me as 友達がくると unless there are analogous activities to "coming" (doing other things like....). The fact of not having a place to sit may be rather limited to the friend first coming, though..

Yeah, I was wondering about that too. Seems the only thing the friend could do where not having enough seats in the house would be "come," unless you count hômon suru, otozureru, and tazuneru as wholly different activities.

undrentide · 31 Mar 2007

protheus said:
友達が来たりすると座る所もない

～たり、～たり is normally used to list up several options/possibilities.
In your example, not only friends but when anyone comes, the speaker will have a problem as there's no place for the guest to sit down.
You can see the difference:
友だちが来たりすると : if someone comes, say, friends, for example.
友だちが来ると : if friends come (talking about specifically about friends)

It could be either about talking about the past experience or hypothetical situation. The point is that the problem is lack of space, not the visity by friend itself.

～たりするはどちらかというと話し言葉なので、かたい言い方ではありません。
Hope this helps.

Elizabeth · 1 Apr 2007

It could be either about talking about the past experience or hypothetical situation. The point is that the problem is lack of space, not the visity by friend itself.

Thank you, undrentide san ! I tried asking my b/f about the friend aspect and he became quite offended at the prospect of inviting anyone outside of your closest relations over to a narrow apartment without a place for them to sit down. When I made some joke about not wanting anyone other than a friend to stay long, he started accusing me of having a different culture and very firmly suggested that this grammar could not be separated from our ways of thinking and that this topic be closed, NOW !

I should have known. He's the type of guy that can never see an example as only an example...

protheus · 1 Apr 2007

あ～わかりました。

Your explanation is absolutly clear. Thanks a lot.

J44xm · 10 Apr 2007

undrentide said:
～たりするはどちらかというと話し言葉なので、かたい言い方ではありません。

そうですか。知りませんでしたよ！もっと硬い言い方は何でしょうか。「～やら」ですか。

undrentide · 10 Apr 2007

J44xm said:
そうですか。知りませんでしたよ！もっと硬い言い方は何でしょうか。「～やら」ですか。

もっとかたい言い方…なんでしょうね？
「～たり」の内容にもよりますが、もっと違った表現になると思います。
友だちが来たりすると → （例えば）友人などが来た場合には

他にもいろいろ言い方があると思いますけど、すぐに思いつきません。

「～やら」はかたいというよりは古めかしい言葉ではないでしょうか。
「～たり、～たり」という並列の意味では「～やら～やら」と使うことができますが、
「友だちが来たりすると」では「たり」をそのまま「やら」には置き換えられませんね。

Glenn · 10 Apr 2007

確か前に「〜やら〜やら」という表現に軽蔑の感じが込んでいると聞いたことがある気がしますがどうでしょうか。別の表現を考えているのでしょうか。

undrentide · 10 Apr 2007

う～ん、グレンさん、それはなかなかに難しい質問ですね。

「やら」というのはもともと「はっきりしない」という意味を含んでいるので、場合によっては馬鹿にしたような言い方にすることもできますが、「やら」という言葉そのものに侮蔑的な意味があるわけではないと思います。

Glenn · 11 Apr 2007

ああ、そうなんですか。場合によって解釈が異なるというわけですね。ありがとうございます！

El Nath · 6 Aug 2010

Hi there...

Can I ask regarding -Tari suru..

Is it possible using V-tari without any other V-tari ?

Ex :

Boku no tonari ni warattari shinai de

Glenn · 6 Aug 2010

Yes. .

El Nath · 6 Aug 2010

Thank you..

err..and why can we use only one V-tari ? i thought -Tari suru are meant to be used if we want to express multiple action

and what if I use

Tonari de warattari shinai

What possibly is the meaning ? is it

- I don't laugh at the neighbor
or
- Please don't laugh at the neighbor

I've been discussing this sentence with friends, and get confused

undrentide · 6 Aug 2010

tonari here means not "neighbour" but "beside".
de is a particle indicating the place where the action is made.
~nai de means "don't ~"

tonari de warattari shinai de
means don't laugh (when you are) beside me.

El Nath · 6 Aug 2010

Ahh yes...

that's why its confused me (if you see my first example, this example are given by my friends)

Tonari de warattari shinai (without de) > what should it be translated to ?

and why -tari suru can be used in this kind of situation ?

again thanks...

Toritoribe · 7 Aug 2010

El Nath said:
and why -tari suru can be used in this kind of situation ?

That's used in the similar sense to the original usage of "~tari, ~tari", that is, it shows "warau" is one of the examples.

El Nath said:
Tonari de warattari shinai (without de) > what should it be translated to ?

"I don't laugh or the such beside you." (As you can see in my reply above.;-))

El Nath · 9 Aug 2010

Ahh I see thanks for your clear explanation

because my friend keeps on insisting that its going to be translated as "Please don't" instead of "I don't"

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