Pronounciation

Tomii515

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Umm, I was wondering mostly about the double consonants in Japanese (tt, kk, gg, etc.)

basically, could someone explain how to pronounce each of the following, umm, "words":

zuto
zutto
zuuto

here's what i think:

zoo-toh
zoo-[hesitation]-toh (glottalaized? i think its called)
zoo-oo-toh
 
A bit more detailed than you might have wanted...

In order to understand the function and realization of extended consonants, it's important to understand that the rhythm of Japanese is based on the mora, a rhythmic unit much like the syllable. Hiragana and Katakana, often mistakenly referred to as syllabaries, are moraic writing systems, where each character represents a single mora. When read aloud, each character is allotted roughly the same amount of time to say. This becomes apparent when a Japanese speaker "spells" out a word in Japanese: they do not use letters, but will say aloud the morae that make up the word (ex: 家族 = か・ぞ・く = ka-zo-ku).

The only exceptions to this are the use of half-width kana to produce sounds like きゃ, しゅ, and じょ, or non-japanese sounds in foreign loan words like ファミリー or ミルクティー. These sounds still consist of a single mora, even though they are written with more than one character.

The double consonants you asked about are marked in kana by the small tsu っ (ッ in katakana). It's proper name is sokuon, but it is commonly simply referred to as 小さいつ (chiisai tsu). This character does not have a sound of its own, but rather marks that the following consonant sound is extended by the length of one mora. It is not a glottal sound; its placement is the exact same as the consonant it modifies. So for, say, "hatto" (ハット, hat), you simply hold the /t/ sound slightly longer than for "hato" (はと, pigeon).
For plosives like /t/, /d/, /b/, /p/, /k/, and /g/*, It sounds like you pause before you actually release the sound and continue the word. Examples include:

っぽ (一歩)
っぱん (一般)
ッキー and
っかいどう (北海道).

For fricatives or affricates like /s/, /z/, /ch/, and /j/, the sound is simply lengthened for the length of one mora, like the difference between the /s/ sound in "sam" and "hiss." Whereas plosives include a full stoppage of the airflow, fricatives require you to expel your breath as you make the sound. So these sounds couple with a sokuon simply sound longer, such as:

っしょ (一緒)
っせい (一世)
っさい (八歳)
and so on...

Most likely, the best way for you to learn to distinguish these sounds is to listen to Japanese (podcasts or the like), and practice mimicking these sounds.

*please note that all phonemes are written in the Hepburn system.

Check out Wiki's article on Sokuon for a bit more info.
 
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ahh! ok! Thanks :) That really helped, because I didn't know they were extended with the s and such! thanks :)

[edit]

What about /n/ and /m/ and those things? hmmm... well, im guess you hold the consonant longer also! :-)
 
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well, in Japanese phonology, the ん is called a moraic nasal, and is very interesting character, as it (much like the sokuon) has no individual pronunciation (ie you never see っ or ん by themselves, or at the beginning of a word).

The ん character has a variety of romanizations, because it actually adopts the place of articulation of the following sound (both vowels and consonants), but is realized as a nasal sound in that place of articulation. It's an "n" in cases like さんぜん (sanzen) and みんぞく (minzoku), and an "m" in words like にほんばし (nihombashi). There are several other phonetic realizations of this character; it's called assimilation.

I've gone into more detail on this subject in this thread. Here's a direct link to my post regarding ん.
 
koto

I hope it's ok to post my question in this same topic, since it's also about pronunciation.

Is there a big difference when you pronounce a word like koto, as in koto ga dekiru, and koto as in the Japanese instrument?
 
ohhh, like the "m" in "tempura"? I never thought "tempura" was japanese >>< thanks!
 
tomii: yes, that is exactly why it is often spelled "tempura." the /p/ sound is a bilabial plosive (ie you make the sound with your lips), so when the ん comes before it (or a /b/), it becomes a bilabial nasal, /m/.

heion: Japanese is a pitch accent language. There are several homophones, and often, the only way to tell between them is the placement of the pitch accent (or its absence) in the word. I believe that 事 has no accent, while 琴, the instrument, has an accent on the first syllable. Nevertheless, even if you don't know the difference between the two, you should be able to figure it out from the context.
 
@nice gaijin = pronunciation expert?
x)

I have a question on pronunciation too.
I think i get the double consonant thingy, and i definitely get the double vowel thing. Do you guys know of any podcast/website that has examples so i can hear it?
 
I wouldn't say I'm an expert, but I did study phonology under an expert for a year, and I'd like to think I picked up a lot from her. There's a lot of material online, but i can't offhand find anything that is specifically designed to illustrate the differences between normal and long consonants and vowels... If i come across any I will post them here.

edit: it's a bit technical, but this is a really interesting article on the phonetics of loan-words, and how our native language interferes when we try to new learn ones.

Overcoming phonetic interference - Wells
 
Well, that wasn't quite what I was expecting it to be, although it did a good job in pointing out in detail the problems that Japanese people have when trying to pronounce English. A lot of it paralled my own observations, but some of it went deeper than what I had thought about it.

On a somewhat related note, I never did get a good explanation for why "drive" is phonetically transcribed as [draɪv] and not as how I hear it pronounced by pretty much every native English speaker: [dʒraɪv]. You don't happen to know about that or have a link to some explanation for it, do you, nice gaijin?
 
I wouldn't say I'm an expert, but I did study phonology under an expert for a year, and I'd like to think I picked up a lot from her. There's a lot of material online, but i can't offhand find anything that is specifically designed to illustrate the differences between normal and long consonants and vowels... If i come across any I will post them here.

edit: it's a bit technical, but this is a really interesting article on the phonetics of loan-words, and how our native language interferes when we try to new learn ones.

Overcoming phonetic interference - Wells

You're too modest!
xD

hmmm, yes, that was very technical, and i didn't understand a lot.. :p
 
Well, that wasn't quite what I was expecting it to be, although it did a good job in pointing out in detail the problems that Japanese people have when trying to pronounce English. A lot of it paralled my own observations, but some of it went deeper than what I had thought about it.
On a somewhat related note, I never did get a good explanation for why "drive" is phonetically transcribed as [draɪv] and not as how I hear it pronounced by pretty much every native English speaker: [dʒraɪv]. You don't happen to know about that or have a link to some explanation for it, do you, nice gaijin?
hmm, I hadn't heard that before. I tried saying it several times myself and had other people say it aloud (without telling them what it was for). I can see why you would think it, but for the word to start with the dʒ affricate, it would have to be much more aspirated. Also, the place of articulation of the tongue is slightly farther forwards in [dr] than [dʒ]. I suspect that there is more to it, but there doesn't seem to be anything special about this word, so if it were phonetically [dʒ], then all word-initial instances of /dr/ would be as well, and I just don't think that's the case.
 
Hmm, I'm pretty sure it's the case for at least me and the people around here. I did mean /dr/ in general, by the way, and the unvoiced version is /tr/, which to me sounds like [tʃr], as in "trick," "tread," "trivial," "trial," "triumph," "trifle," etc. I remember bringing it up in a class at U of Hawai'i at Manoa, with people from Hawai'i and CA and MD (and other states, I'm sure, but those are the ones I can remember), and they seemed to agree with me (but then again, it was an introductory class on Linguistics, and not quite an advanced class on phonetics). Well anyway, it was worth asking. Thanks.
 
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