Others editing my posts . . .

kokusu · 19 Dec 2005

This has only happened once, but . . .

Someone other than myself edited one of my posts (see thread: Why Japan Remains a Threat to Peace and Democracy in Asia.

Apparently, it was Mandylion, who in addition to adding to my post, stated in the edit info line, "Reason: just have to add - don't want to hijack".

Excuse me?!? what?!? I do not want anyone - ANYONE - editing my posts! This is whether they are changing, removing, or adding!!!

I want this stopped right now! This is not up for negotiation with me! Either return my post to original and leave all my posts (past, present, and future) alone, or I will delete my account!

You can quote and respond to my posts like everyone else. Or, if there is something I write that violates any rules of posting, you can point it out to me and have me edit it. But, I have never given anyone permission to alter my posts for me!

Since when did it occur that this would be assumed to be an OK function to have on this forum!?!?

:angryfire :auch:

Kinsao · 19 Dec 2005

wow - I didn't know this could be done even by admins, although I knew they can delete posts. ☝
I'm gonna be careful.... oh so careful.................

bossel · 19 Dec 2005

kokusu said:
Excuse me?!? what?!? I do not want anyone - ANYONE - editing my posts! This is whether they are changing, removing, or adding!!!

I don't know what it was in that particular case, but usually Mandylion has good reason when he edits or deletes something. Perhaps Mandylion just hit a wrong button?

Kinsao said:
wow - I didn't know this could be done even by admins, although I knew they can delete posts.

Er..., from the FAQ:
"What Are Moderators?

Moderators oversee specific forums. They generally have the ability to edit and delete posts, move threads, and perform other manipulations."

I want this stopped right now! This is not up for negotiation with me! Either return my post to original and leave all my posts (past, present, and future) alone, or I will delete my account!

Stick to the rules & there shouldn't be much of a problem.

But, I have never given anyone permission to alter my posts for me!

I think, you did, by registering.

Since when did it occur that this would be assumed to be an OK function to have on this forum!?!?

Right from the start, I suppose.

kirei_na_me · 19 Dec 2005

Well, knowing Mandylion, it was done for a legitimate reason. He wouldn't just go around editing posts for no reason. He's just not like that.

Yes, we have the ability to edit posts if we see fit. That's in the job description.

I'll let Mandylion speak for himself, though, since I wasn't involved in that thread and don't know exactly what was going on.

Sensuikan San · 19 Dec 2005

Just to back-up the moderators (and with no intent to "brown-nose"!)

I don't have a problem with this.

I would rather have a post edited than deleted.

This forum is not alone. I have had a post edited on another forum. It's usually the 'better run' forums that do this.

It's usually a matter of potential legal liability ... which can involve name-calling approaching slander (when the "victim" can be identified), profanity, obscenity etc. etc.

I would say it's a matter of preserving our own security ... but, yes, it can feel insulting or harsh for a moment.

... just my two cents ....

ジョン

kokusu · 19 Dec 2005

If such is the case . . .

bossel said:
Er..., from the FAQ:
"What Are Moderators?

Moderators oversee specific forums. They generally have the ability to edit and delete posts, move threads, and perform other manipulations."

kirei_na_me said:
Yes, we have the ability to edit posts if we see fit. That's in the job description.

Sensuikan San said:
It's usually a matter of potential legal liability ... which can involve name-calling approaching slander (when the "victim" can be identified), profanity, obscenity etc. etc.

The post in question was a single link, made without any additional comment. I did so on purpose, because I felt just having the link by itself made a powerful comment. The post was edited to include the comment:

From Mandylion - I loved Patrick Lee's comment (first one after all the pictures)

1) I don't think Mandylion had ill intent in mind when he did this (I like Mandylion, too, btw!); just to be clear up front, this is not about whether or not I think Mandylion is a good person/admin (which I think he is, and I know no one is saying that I have said otherwise). But, I disagree strongly with anyone having the ability to edit my posts at will, be they admins or not!
2) Sometimes, people read over a post quickly and don't see everything; in this case, I felt that some people may not realize that Mandylion had added commentary and have thought that I had written the commentary. Mainly, in this case, because I am not sure everyone is aware that admins can add to posts like that (I wasn't!). In other words, if my posts can be edited by someone else, I am concerned that I may be accidentally thought to have written something that I didn't. I have enough of a time debating what I do say with people without the potential of having to debate what someone may think I said with an admin's edit.
3) As I said, if I write something inappropriate ("potential legal liability"), delete it, or let me know about it. If I cannot edit it to meet submission rules, then I don't mind having it deleted.
4) If these are the rules, then I disagree with them, and must seriously consider if I want to continue membership/participation if I must accept the risk of being edited over without consent to participate.

This came as a total shock to me. I suppose that if this is made clear in the agreement part of signing up, then I should have read and considered more carefully. I am sorry that I did not do so.
If I had written something over the top, I might be more receptive to what happened (like if I had written, "BLEEP you, you BLEEPING BLEEP BLEEPS! I'll BLEEPING BLEEP you in the BLEEP BLEEP, and if you don't like it, you can BLEEP my BLEEP!"). But, it does not seem that my post was edited for content, but that Mandylion was simply replying to my post within the post itself.

Also, how often does this occur? Do the admins keep a record of how many posts they edit without asking, the type of posts that are edited, and whose posts are edited? I would be very curious to know.

But, again, I guess what I am finding out is that that is the way the rules are and I can either accept them or leave. Regretfully, I have to say that is fair; this is not my forum, so I need to accept that I don't make the rules. BUt, wow, talk about a disheartening surprise . . .

thomas · 19 Dec 2005

I cannot speak on Mandylion's behalf, but I am quite sure that the reason for editing your post is quite trivial (such as hitting the wrong key, as Bossel had implied).

First of all, let me quote the Forum Rules each member agrees to when signing up:

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Although the administrators and moderators of Japan Forum will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this forum, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of Japan Forum, nor Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.

By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

The owners of Japan Forum reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason.

That's just the standard nitty-gritty.

In addition to that, we have the following Terms of Service (I know I still have to relink them, they got deleted during the recent upgrade)

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kokusu said:
But, I disagree strongly with anyone having the ability to edit my posts at will, be they admins or not!

Administrators and moderators (team members) on all online fora - certainly not "anyone" - must have the ability to edit, delete and move posts and threads. However, in doing so they have to adhere to rules laid down by the site's administration.

kokusu said:
Also, how often does this occur? Do the admins keep a record of how many posts they edit without asking, the type of posts that are edited, and whose posts are edited? I would be very curious to know.

We are not keeping records as to how often posts are edited or removed, because it is at each admin's or mod's discretion to interfere - of course within the framework of our Rules. In case a post has been edited there is a short tag indicating the time and reason. Admins and mods do not need to ask for permission. It would be quite pointless to ask for instance a spammer or a trolling/flaming member for such an authorisation...

Once again, I believe that the reason for your edit is trivial, but I just want you to understand that the administration and team members must have the ability to preserve the integrity of the forum.

I am sorry for your disheartening surprise and hope you'll continue to enjoy the Japan Forum knowing that our team is around, enforcing our Rules in order to ensure your online comfort.

kokusu · 19 Dec 2005

Real life . . . it's what happens most days . . .

I talked with a friend outside the forum about this particular issue. Where I am often more passionate and fiery in my approach to life, he is more laid back and unassuming.

We went out to dinner and had a good conversation. In being able to talk with someone else, really verbalize what I was thinking and feeling, I was able to come to at least a few concrete thoughts and decisions.

1) I am sorry for losing my composure. If I had taken the time to read all rules and such thoroughly to begin with, then I would have . . . should have been prepared for this possibility. Therefore, being angry about it probably was not the best way to approach my criticism/questioning of this event.
I especially want to apologize to Mandylion, because it may have seemed that I was angry with him (which I was and am not).

2) Not knowing the rules is not a good excuse for trying to not be bound by the rules. When I signed up to participate in the forum, I was agreeing to abide by the rules and accept them, whether I liked them or not, and in this case whether I read them or not.
I didn't break any rules in this case (thank goodness!), but was merely subject to their application as pertains to the authority given moderators and admin's.
So, I guess the moral of this, kids, is be sure to read carefully what is written and don't assume you know everything.

3) I need to decide whether I can accept this or not, make a decision to pareticipate or not, and then move on with life. Inherently, because no one forced me to join J-Ref (no J-Ref draft that I am aware of!), and because I have come here and participated voluntarily, the rules are fair.
While thoughts 1 and 2 were easy for me, this one is challenging. Regardless of the debates (heated or otherwise), despite misunderstandings that occasionally occur, and even with rules that I am uncomfortable with I appreciate the J-Ref forums. So, I have to balance my discomfiture against my desire to be here. If anyone hasn't noticed, sometimes I get lost in my idealistic zeal. Sometimes, this is good, sometimes, this is a burden.
I guess, for now, I think I should stay if only because departing over this immediately might seem drastic and melodramatic. But staying in the long run I think depends on two things: first, nurturing a belief in and realizing a beneficial productivity to my participation here; and, secondly, learning to balance standing up for myself with playing nice with others. Call these two things "Do good and be good," perhaps.

I want to do good; I see the forums as being a potentially awesome resource to provide people information about Japan. But, I also sometimes feel that there is equal danger that they can serve to spread disinformation about Japan as well. I come from an academic background, one where we had factuality and objectivity drilled into us over and over. Yet, this is a place for social opinion and debate. The measuring stick is different. That being the case, I need to consider carefully the manner of my participation here.

I want to be good; everyone deserves my best regardless of the nature of the forum, discourse, or debate. I am still trying to learn to give my best when things happen or are framed in a way that I may disagree with or dislike. The question is, can I still do my best under adversity?

Well . . . there you have it. So, I'm still here, I'm still pondering, and I'm still trying. I still don't like that someone can edit my posts without asking, but I have at least moved to the point of accepting it as fair. Where to go from here?

Kinsao · 19 Dec 2005

Kokuso:
As you have said, you can see how the rules are fair, so... It sounds like you really want to help people by providing information about Japan. So you should definitely stay because your contribution is valuable! Obviously, on an internet discussion forum there are posts that have inaccuracies, or people's opinions (which you might disagree with), and some just plain spam occasionally - in other words as you say "disinformation". But why not still hang around and continue to participate, you can always correct disinformation where it occurs, if you have the better knowledge!

Mandylion · 20 Dec 2005

WHOA!

Kokusu - I am so sorry. I didn't think you would be upset. I really enjoyed your link and I wanted to add a comment. I didn't want to send the thread off on tangents and I thought (wrongly) this would be the best way to do so.

I do need to thank you for making me reflect on my actions and I will be more circumspect in my actions in the future. In the past I have only edited peoples' posts when there was something really wrong or I needed to head off a potential problem. This was my first - shall we say - casual edit. I shall not do so again.

To everyone, and to Kokuso in particular - I my apologies.

Others editing my posts . . .

kokusu

後輩

Kinsao

Horizon Rider

bossel

後輩

kirei_na_me

Where I'm Supposed to Be

Sensuikan San

The Geezer

kokusu

後輩

thomas

Unswerving cyclist

kokusu

後輩

Kinsao

Horizon Rider

Mandylion

Omnipotence personified

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