Numerically Challenged

[Ben W Bell]

Okay. 7 and 9 have two different forms shi chi/nana and ku/kyuu respectively. That I can cope with.

However listening to my Pimsleur courses they use the first for for time, okay so far. Next they are working on counting bottles, yen and so on. For 7 bottles they used nana hon, however for 17 yen they used juu shi chi en. Can someone explain this to me as for bottle and yen they are using kyuu for 9. Is this a mistake or is there a reason?

 

[lexico]

One book says...

The general rule of using the dual number system btwn 1 & 10 are; 1. Use Japanese forms with words of Japanese origin. 2. Use Chinese forms with words of Chinese origin. A natural result of not having aboriginal Japanese numerals beyond 10 is that the Chinese form is the only choice. The problem is the Japanese vs. Chinese distinction seems to have disappeared in the three numerals 4 Jp./yon/ ~Ch./shi/, 7 Jp./nana/ ~Ch./shichi/, and 9 Ch.G./ku/ ~Ch.K./kyuu/. In combination with counter nouns -mai(sheet), -dai(set), -ko(piece), -hon(stick), -satsu(volume), -hiki(insects, animals), -too(head), -wa(birds, rabbits), -nin(person), & -nichi(day); Ch. /shi/ 4 is not used at all; Jp. /nana/ 7 seems to have taken over Ch. /shichi/; and kanon /kyuu/ is preferred over go'on /ku/ in most cases with the following exceptions.

1. 7 /shichi/, 17 /juu-shichi/ are used interchangeably with /nana/ /juu-nana/: -mai

2. 7 /shichi/ is used primarily but interchangeably with /nana/: -wa, -nin

3. 17 /juu-shichi/ is used exclusively: -nichi

4. 9 /ku/, 19 /juu-ku/ are used interchangeably with /kyuu/, /juu-kyuu/ -mai

5. 9 /ku/, 19 /juu-ku/ are used primarily but interchangeably with /kyuu/, /juu-kyuu/: -nin

6. 19 /juu-ku/ is used exclusively: -nichi

I don't have a table for ﾅ｡ﾂ｢ , but the general preference for Jp. /nana/ 7 and kanon /kyuu/ 9 in combination with these counter words does not contradict your observation. (Pimsleur's usage in the early chapters may be based on a broader base of examples, maybe?) Reading of 17 ﾅ｡ﾂ｢ as /juu-shichi-en/ would have to fall in class 1. of exceptions; but not 4 or 5. These exceptions appear to be random, depending on general usage. I'd like to hear of a simpler explanation, though. Furthermore, the language of reference is that of the late 1950's to early 1960's, Tokyo dialect. Any changes in the past half century?

source: 窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪﾅｽlﾂ週ﾅ?ﾃ? Yoshio Ogawa, Daigakusyorin, 1963, Tokyo.

 

[lexico]

Question upon a question

7 and 9 have two different forms shi chi/nana and ku/kyuu respectively......listening to my Pimsleur courses they use the first for for time......Is this a mistake or is there a reason?

I could never answer that other than in another question. Why did Pimsleur do that? Anyone? ☝

 

[Glenn]

A natural result of not having aboriginal Japanese numerals beyond 10 is that the Chinese form is the only choice.

This statement is not entirely correct. Japanese doesn't use any native numbers beyond ten anymore, but it certainly had them. In fact, ancient Japanese could count up to 99,999. Also note the mixing of the remnants of that system with the Chinese system, e.g. hitori, futari, san-nin, etc., and hatachi, tsuitachi, etc.

 

[GaijinPunch]

I could never answer that other than in another question. Why did Pimsleur do that? Anyone? ☝

B/c that's they way you say it? I don't know... I've always found memorization a much better tool than actually trying to think about the stuff. You just know to say shichi-ji for 7 o'clock, and nana-kai for 7 times. That way, you don't have to pause mid-sentence trying to figure it out.

 

[lexico]

Hi, GaijinPunch....

I have only a couple of tables. Do you have a link that lists a lot of number+counter combinations spelled out in tables from 1+counter to 20+counters? Or can you recommend a book with such tables?

 

[Glenn]

I'm not sure if this is what you wanted, but check out this page on counters. It also has links to other pages that are pertinent.

 

[GaijinPunch]

Sorry... I don't. In fact, counters aren't my strongest point... but not my biggest fear either. Now that you mention it, I don't think any books I ever read went into any good at explaining them either.

 

[lexico]

Thanks guys, I think that gives me a good start on the basics. I rarely have a chance to hear much Japanese in a studious setting. Most of the Japanese I meet speak good English. The TAKASUGI Shinji site is just awesome; a brilliant engineer who's also expert in language. I think that will keep me busy for a while...