NSA Spying

Lestat84

Lestat84

Future Expatriate
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As we all know by know, the NSA has been spying on many people illegally. this article details some lesser know instances of NSA spying that go along with the whole scandal: A Guide to the NSA's Perversion of Privacy: What Are the Most Outrageous Breaches into Your Life? | Alternet

so what do you guys think about it?

I know for me, it is the last straw so to speak. I know i don't want to live in the US anymore knowing that everything I say and do can get me in trouble for some kind of terrorism. The wide scope of data collection in the US is utterly alarming. Since no one has any right to privacy anymore, it seems like a better option to go somewhere that respects basic civil liberties.
 
Think about it this way.........

Lets say it's your job from your house to listen in to the 1000 neighbors that live around you. That means you have to listen to all their landline phones and cell phones and watch what each one types on their PC screen. You also have to track what they watch on their TV and what they listen to on the radios. Also you have to keep track of all their GPS locations in their cars. Sounds a bit overwhelming doesn't it. Our spy agencies have the same problem , way way too much info to keep track of. They use Cray computers and many other methods to sort it out , but it is still way too much to keep track of. They only look at people of interest and look for certain key words to try and narrow down important info , but still miss things. So the idea that they have time to look at me or you while spying is pretty small.
The fact that every other major country is spying on us and each other makes me glad we are in the business of keeping an eye on them. Lets face it , info is important in todays world so I'm glad we are out there with everyone else grabbing all we can to keep up. I hate to see the US working with one hand tied behind it's back while the rest of the world has no rules against them.Spying has been around since the beginning of mankind and will never go away , it's part of human nature to want to know what the other guy is doing ; we should be proud that we are one of the best at it.

Uncle Frank
 
There's no reason that any country really needs to be spying on each other. invasion of privacy on such a massive scale, is not OK to me. I'm a fan of the Constitution, and my rights to basic privacy. I know that they may not be looking directly at me, but it bothers me that they have access to such data without my permission. I'm not doing anything they need to be concerned about, but it's still a very scary thought. No country needs to spy, because it's a violation of human rights, and we ought to be more focused on demilitarizing then on getting the upper-hand on the other guys.
 
Lets say it's your job from your house to listen in to the 1000 neighbors that live around you.
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I cannot believe you are running with that as a legit job.

Its times like this that I wonder what America had against the Soviet Union if we are just going to emulate them today?

No, I am afraid that democracy, freedom and privacy means we will just have to brave a world where we have to wait until people actually commit a criminal act than to do all this minority report $#!T of seeking and grabbing people just talking.

Something I think gets lost in these types of conversations is just how powerful a force it is on people's minds to be watched and tracked. It FEELS like prison, and so essentially, it is.

And the idea that this has made us more secure is a myth. All that has happened is that Americans have become complete chicken $#!Ts and they are not even doing that in a wise manner.

Something like 15,000 people are murdered every single year in America. But in 2001, a fluke, freak, one-off terror attack killed 3,000 and people panic that that could happen again! In the inter-rim, nearly 200,000 people have been murdered in America, and most with guns that any idiot could get in the U.S.
 
Lestat84 said:
it seems like a better option to go somewhere that respects basic civil liberties.
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Be very cautious about where you decide to emigrate to. If you imagine that Japan is the champion of civil liberties you desire, you might be disappointed to discover how police treat suspected criminals, how the court system in general tends to favor the prosecution, and how foreigners in general are vulnerable to the machinery of prosecution. This is in addition to the many intrusions on private life that you will face here that aren't generally part of life in the US.
The Japanese constitution itself doesn't necessarily champion the human rights of all people in Japan, rather it refers to kokumin as opposed to jinmin, the difference of which is subtle, but perhaps not so subtle to the translators of the original English document into Japanese. If you want to hear a litany of the many, minor injustices that await you as a foreigner in Japan, see the site of Debito Arudo, an ex-resident of Japan who has made a life work of chronicling these things.
And if you fear the consequences of surveillance by the NSA, you will want to pay close attention to the details of the secrecy law that just passed in Japan, and how the law got through the Japanese diet.
I'm not saying Japan is a prison. I have never felt that. On the whole, it is a fantastic place for me to live. But I don't live under the illusion that my civil liberties are sacrosanct here in Japan, or that human rights are of paramount importance to the legal process here. On the whole, if you are to be wrongly accused of something, you probably have a better chance of a fair defense in the US or the UK. But those societies are not without their problems and the anxieties that come with them. I guess what I'm saying is; it would be naive to assume that you can escape your fear of being scrutinized by coming to Japan. It would be naive to come here without being aware of the potential for Japan to re-militarize, and the desire to do so by many of those in power or seeking power. It would be naive to come here thinking Japan will protect your civil liberties.
 
I don't know for sure that Japan is where I will choose to go. Im not so naive as to believe any country besides the US will automatically protect my civil liberties. I would visit several countries and make an informed decision. It obviously doesn't make sense to rush into a life decision if that magnitude. And maybe I will find that there's no better option. I really don't know. I just have hope that a country that lives up to its promises at least in most cases exists. Government exists to ensure civil rights for its citizens as well as keep them safe. By nature it is something one consents to. I for one don't consent to violation of civil rights. But that may be a reality I have to accept no matter where I go. Only time will tell.
 
I've lived in both the US and Japan, and believe civil rights are better protected in the US. There is too much deference to authority in Japan; both the authorities and civilians tend to put rights in second place to deference.

I don't consider Mexico to be any protector of human rights. For one, their gun control laws are so draconian that one's personal right to self defense is almost non-existent in the face of much better armed criminals. In fact, if there was ever an Exhibit A in the case that strict gun laws ensure that only the criminals have guns, it's Mexico.

It does tick me off that the NSA has been spying on our citizens. It doesn't bother me at all that our government spies on non-Americans. They spy on us, we spy on them. That's how the world works.
 
Spying on other citizens is really another question. I don't disagree with that at all. how do you mean there is too much deference to authority?
 
I feel very uncomfortable with the NSA spying and feel that America, along with many other countries are exploiting their citizens' civil liberty under an exaggerated threat of terrorism. Mark of Zorrow is spot on by bringing up the relative deaths in America since 2001 .... So many more Americans have been killed by fellow Americans than have been killed by foreigners.
I don't want to get into that whole gun law debate ... It just leaves me scratching my head and lost for words !!

Majestic.
You mentioned that you would rather be in the UK or USA rather than Japan if you were falsely accused of something.
The USA and Japan would be amongst the last countries on earth I would want to face a false prosecution, for one simple reason.
The death penalty.
Google The Innocence project for some real life horror stories.
 
I said, "if you are to be wrongly accused of something, you probably have a better chance of a fair defense in the US or the UK", which I think is a fair statement. The standards for conviction, and the appeals process of the US - or probably any other country with a Western tradition of jurisprudence - are pretty appealing. More appealing to me than a court without a jury or a religious court. I mean, Turkey has abandoned the death penalty, but I don't fancy me chances in a Turkish court. Anyway, the point is that Japan shouldn't be held up as an ideal in terms of civil liberties or championing the rights of man. It has its good points. But come here with an open mind.

And don't come here to escape surveillance. Anybody who has spent any time in rural Japan will tell you: you will be mercilessly watched.
 
I won't disagree with you on your points about Japan there.
Japan does have trial by jury now and it certainly isn't religiously swayed which you couldn't hand on heart say for all States and Counties in the US.
I'm also growing more and more concerned about the strengths of the Jury system with each miscarriage of justice that is exposed.
OJ Simpson type juries can convict as well as exonerate.
Saying all that though, I would probably prefer to go to trial in America than Japan.
 
I forgot to mention that I lived in rural japan for many years and I would much rather have Mrs Yamada and Mrs Kikuchi discussing what I put in my rubbish bins than my life being recorded on the databases of the CIA and their counterparts around the world !!
 
Dotanbatan said:
I forgot to mention that I lived in rural japan for many years and I would much rather have Mrs Yamada and Mrs Kikuchi discussing what I put in my rubbish bins than my life being recorded on the databases of the CIA and their counterparts around the world !!
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I completely agree with you on that. Also your above posts are well articulated. people being nosy is harmless, the government having a list of everything I've ever done is a scary thought. And I absolutely agree that Americans are the real problem. the threat of terror is so hyper-exaggerated that the government is using the mass panic they have created to control people. They never let us forget anything someone has done to us, but we never know the atrocities we commit.
 
Lestat84 said:
And I absolutely agree that Americans are the real problem.
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I would say that the actual terrorists are the real problem, but call me old fashioned.

Lestat84, in a different thread you asked Uncle Frank how he could return to America knowing that America was so corrupt. Forgive me for harping on this, but I really think you ought to reconsider your position about Japan. If you want to come here to explore everything it has to offer, this is a good thing and you shouldn't be shy about it. It is a great place. One can have a fabulous life here. But if you claim you are coming here as protest against America's record on civil rights or out of protest for American corruption, people will think you are being naive.
Japan has civil rights abuses and corruption in spades, as most every other country that is run by homo sapiens. The good thing about America is that there is a system/tradition of redress for civil rights abuses (as unsatisfactory as it may be). In Japan, there is no Bill of Rights, and no tradition of vigorously debating basic human rights. Its a weakness of the Japanese system, as far as I'm concerned, but by and large Japan remains a pleasant and crime-free place to live. The downside is that people don't spend too much time wondering about the rights of minorities, women, underprivileged, immigrants, etc... and if you are on the wrong end of this debate don't expect a lot of sympathy from the legal system here.

Similarly with corruption; its a more or less open secret that the ruling party relies on support from the right-wing (the quasi-fascist guys that drive the sound trucks exhorting the citizens to revere the Emperor, kick out the Koreans, and start a war with China).

So, by all means please come to Japan and broaden your horizons. But seriously reconsider whether you are coming to escape the US's track record on civil rights, or whether you are coming because something in your heart tells you it is the right move for you. Don't forget, most of your problems are portable. If you hate corruption and abuse of human rights and hypocrisy in America, I don't imagine you will find your bliss here in Japan.
 
Dotanbatan said:
I forgot to mention that I lived in rural japan for many years and I would much rather have Mrs Yamada and Mrs Kikuchi discussing what I put in my rubbish bins than my life being recorded on the databases of the CIA and their counterparts around the world !!
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Haha, touche. You are right. But I would also say that I never had the CIA comment to me on how long my girlfriend stayed over at my house, and the NSA never mentioned to my colleagues the contents of my shopping cart.
 
I never said that Japan was the best place to live. I'm not so naive to realize that other countries have their issues too. In fact, I don't think I'd like to live in Japan all that much. I do intend to leave the USA if I can find somewhere that has a tolerable level of issues. If it proves that there's nowhere better then I'll stay. I'll admit I probably get a little too worked up about issues like this, but then again, I see no excuse for violating the constitution.

I think that America needs to own up to its fault in the whole terrorism issue. Yes terror is a threat, but I also believe that our government makes it way bigger than it actually is, and makes the problem worse by occupying all these countries that hate us to begin with
 
Majestic said:
Haha, touche. You are right. But I would also say that I never had the CIA comment to me on how long my girlfriend stayed over at my house, and the NSA never mentioned to my colleagues the contents of my shopping cart.
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Have we explored the idea that Mrs Yamada and Mrs Kikuchi could be working for the CIA / NSA ?!?

Now THAT'S a scary thought !!
 
Before one goes waving around the Bill of Rights with beaming pride and lauding the American court system, one should be humbled by the fact that America has more people in prison than any other country, bar none. Even more populous countries have fewer people in prison!

And that is not just the freedom to a have had a bad upbringing at work. There is pure injustice going on as well. In Japan, you can at least expect some leniency in sentencing.

That said, I would generally rather go to trial in America, but that is mainly because the trial will be held in English. Second to that would be the lack of discrimination as a white American. You have to expect discrimination in Japan just given human nature when faced with a different race and nationality and a less than native grasp of the local language and custom.

In fact, if there was ever an Exhibit A in the case that strict gun laws ensure that only the criminals have guns, it's Mexico.
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My only problem is your tendency to generalize. What is good for Mexico is NOT good for everybody and not America either. Mexico is so wild that it needs citizen gun ownership and in fact, needs citizen militia's. But stable countries like Canada are doing great with strict rules. Now which do you think America is closer to, Mexico or Canada?

I would say that the actual terrorists are the real problem, but call me old fashioned.
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Yeah, I am sure that is how the British felt about the rebelling American colonists. No, I am sorry, but you cannot meddle with people and expect them to just take it. You also cannot expect them to just run in front of a superior military force and be cut down like dogs. They will either do sneaky stuff to live, or make sure they die with a bang. But you cannot subvert governments around the world for selfish political and financial gain and expect there to be no reaction.

I just simply wish terrorists/guerillas/freedom fighters would target the power brokers and military members alone and not bother us people who have nothing to do with any of it. It other words, I would have been fine with an empty jet hitting the Pentagon. I am not cool with jets full of civilians hitting the twin towers. I cannot even tell you who died on 9/11 that deserved it, although I am sure some surely did. Did al-Qaida ever release a list of such targets?
 
Zorro, I think you essentially agree that the US court system is good (or, the best of a bad lot), but you somehow want to take a contrary stance anyway. Fair enough. But I recommend you put away the self-loathing, masochistic, revisionism. The size of the prison population has nothing to do with what is one of the most fundamentally decent, reasonably plain-spoken, vigorously and openly debated documents in western political history. I repeat it is one of the strengths of US society, outlining the limits of government and the basic rights of those in the US, and it is well worth bragging about. However, if you want to feel humbled by the US prison population, be my guest.

I didn't know that Japan is more lenient in sentencing than the US, especially for crimes committed by foreigners. In fact, it sounds a bit unbelievable. Is there any evidence for this?

I'm not sure how to deconstruct your rant about America. I guess it would be easiest just to take it as (yet another) general statement of anti-Americanism and leave it at that. But since it was directed at my statement that terrorists were bad guys, and since you seem to support US-targeted terrorism, I admit to a kind of morbid fascination with your thinking. For example, I have no idea what point you are trying to make by referring to the American colonists. (They didn't commandeer public transport and crash it into, say, Covent Garden). Would it be fair to assume you believe Al Qaeda was justified in attacking the US? (even though you disagree with the choice of targets - although, to paraphrase you, there were probably some worthy targets in the twin towers). I don't want to put words in your mouth, so forgive me if I am oversimplifying.

As for the motives for the attacks, you seem to think it was a kind of popular uprising in response to US meddling in the middle east, as opposed to being a narrowly-supported, religiously motivated, heaven-mandated strike at the Great Satan. The only "US meddling" they complained of (with which you seem to sympathize) was the US army presence in Saudi Arabia - and only this because they wish to make Saudi Arabia into an even more sharia-correct society. Oh, and they also object to Israel's existence. Are these the people you refer to by way of horizontal slash as "freedom fighters"?
 
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