Need Help With Two Kanji Phrases Translated into English

Jesse V · 6 Aug 2005

I've tried using online translators to translate these 2 Kanji phrases.. they give a rough translation of what they are but they don't give the exact phrase that the page I got the sayings from gives. Basically, I'm curious if there are proverb's or whatever that are causing this.

The first phrase is

傍若無人

The page translates this as To act as if no one is beside you, i.e. boldly, without restraint. If I plug this into a Japanese translator it comes back with something similar but adds in things like arrogance and what not which isn't what I want for a saying.

The second phrase is

天長地久

The page translates it as the sky is wide, the earth is eternal. Japanese translation sites come back with something involving the heaven's and earth.

Any help on these is greatly appreciated.

Thanks

lexico · 6 Aug 2005

Jesse V said:
I've tried using online translators to translate these 2 Kanji phrases.. they give a rough translation of what they are but they don't give the exact phrase that the page I got the sayings from gives. Basically, I'm curious if there are proverb's or whatever that are causing this.

Your first example "To act as if no one is beside you" 傍若無人, literally, would mean "nearby" + "as if" + "there isn't" + "a person." The translation "arrogant(ly), arrogance" is merely a reduced one-word synonym which reflects the current usage mostly restricted to describing a person's negative attitude of neglecting or looking down upon others whereas the classical usage could have carried either a positive or neutral sense, "without minding other people's opinions."

天長地久; your page translation of "the sky is wide, and the earth is eternal" would be closer to the classical translation. As for the Japanese translation site's "something involving the heaven's and earth," I cannot comment without the details. It may be noted 長 is not only long spatially, but can also be "old, elderly, and elder" while 久 would have meant temporally extended, pertaining to a long span of time, not necessarily "eternal." Therefore it could also be phrased, "The heaven is wide, and the earth is lasting." This is a compound sentence that would qualify as a proverb highlighting the vastness of space and time.

edit: I made a correction; 傍若無人 lacks a subject, but could qualify as a full sentence by having omitted it. In modern usage, it can be used as a predicate clause or adverbially. I am not sure if it can be considered a proverb.

Jesse V · 6 Aug 2005

lexico said:
Your first example would not be considered a proverb because it is not a full sentence. It is only an expression of what your "page" gave you; "To act as if no one is beside you." 傍若無人, literally, would be "nearby" + "as if" + "there isn't" + "a person." The translation "arrogant(ly), arrogance" is merely a reduced one-word synonym which reflects the current usage mostly restricted to describing a person's negative attitude of neglecting or looking down upon others whereas the classical usage could have carried either a positive or neutral sense, "without minding other people's opinions."

天長地久; your page translation of "the sky is wide, and the earth is eternal" would be closer to the classical translation. As for the Japanese translation site's "something involving the heaven's and earth," I cannot comment without the details. It may be noted 長 is not only long spatially, but can also be "old, elderly, and elder" while 久 would have meant temporally extended, pertaining to a long span of time, not necessarily "eternal." Therefore it could also be phrased, "The heaven is wide, and the earth is lasting." This is a compound sentence that would qualify as a proverb highlighting the vastness of space and time.

Thanks for the information..

Does anyone else have any more info on what the first one could classically mean? Its for a tattoo for someone.. they like the meaning that the site gives, however, they don't like the arrogant translation of it.

lexico · 6 Aug 2005

Jesse V said:
Does anyone else have any more info on what the first one could classically mean? Its for a tattoo for someone.. they like the meaning that the site gives, however, they don't like the arrogant translation of it.

What the page gave you is the classical meaning. But modern usage invariably associates arrogance to it; it may not be a good idea to use it as a tattoo phrase regardless of its classically neutral origin.

Wikiquote Japanese Proverbs says 傍若無人 is from 史記
傍若無人 (Boujaku bujin) -- (lit. (To act) as if no one were beside you; i.e., boldly, without restraint)

In this edition of Laozi translation, Section 7, 天長地久 is rendered, "Heaven is long-enduring and earth continues long."

Jesse V · 7 Aug 2005

Thats interesting.. so my next question would be is there kanji translation that is similar to the first one but more positive. I'd want to drop the arrogant part and what not and focus on the positives (the strength and boldness of being able to stand alone).

If thats not possible, the first phrase she wanted was When desire becomes obsession. What we thought we found was that When and becomes are not in the Kanji language so thats an issue. Is that true?

McCrutch67 · 7 Aug 2005

Well kanji isn't really a "language," as you have referred to it as. All japanese could be written with kana but kanji or chinese characters are used in place of some words or parts of words. If you want all kanji, your best bet is to just use chinese instead of japanese. But of course if you really want japanese, you can try but not many full sentences are written in kanji.

時=time

成る=to become

[blank]時 = "when [blank]"

Verbs usually require kana. If it is allowable to leave it out and still be intelligible than that would be nice. I don't really know though.

My guess for "When desire becomes obsession" with the most kanji would be 切望が強迫観念を成る時 but the が, を, and る are necessary for grammar purposes.

I don't know if anyone knows a way to put that without the kana but you could get lucky.

Glenn · 7 Aug 2005

You could write it without kana if you used kambun (漢文), which is ancient Japanese writing (it's pretty much classical Chinese). Other than that you're probably out of luck, if you want it to be Japanese. I think classical Chinese would be the way to go, because it was monosyllabic, so you could make a whole sentence with only four characters (and probably even less).

sasame · 7 Aug 2005

If following English was shown, I have possibilities of translating, saying that 「彼の行動は傍若無人です」.
もし、次のような英文が示されたなら、私は「彼の行動は傍若無人です」と訳す可能性があります。

1)His behavior is outrageous.
2)He disregards surrounding people, and does selfish behavior.

"天長地久" the significance of this remark is that things continue so that neither sky nor
ground may change permanently through all eternity.
「天長地久」という言葉の意味は、空と大地が永久に変わらないように物事が永遠に続くことです。

傍若無人という四字熟語は、中国の『史記』に出てくる荊軻（けいか）という暗殺者のエピソードから生まれました。彼は高漸離（こうぜんり）という楽器の名手と一緒に街中で大酒を飲んで歌い騒ぎ、最後は感極まって泣き出したそうです。そんな彼の様子を「傍若無人」――まるで周囲に他の人たちなどいないようだ――と表現してあります。
その「傍若無人」という中国語を日本語風に読むと「かたわらにひとなきがごとし（傍らに人無きが若し）」となります。

しかし、現代日本においては、傍若無人と形容をされる人というのは、ハタ迷惑な嫌われ者ばかりのようです。周囲に人がいてもお構いなしの自己中心さで勝手気まま振る舞いをする人のことを「傍若無人」と形容するようになったようです。
そういう使われ方をしている以上、刺青で「傍若無人」と彫るのは、あまりオススメできない気がします。ブリトニー・スピアーズがミステリアスという意味だと思って彫った「奇」の字のように、後々後悔する可能性が……(^_^; まあ、あれが「奇妙」の「奇」だと思うから凹むわけで、「奇跡」の「奇」だと思えば良いんじゃないかと思いますが(^_^;;

天長地久と言えば、日本の小泉首相が米国のブッシュ大統領に「天長地久之鏑矢（てんちょうちきゅうのかぶらや）」を贈ったことがありました。天長地久の鏑矢というのは、天下太平・五穀豊穣・万民安堵を祈る、天長地久の儀の後に行われる流鏑馬に使われるものです。邪悪を払い恒久平和を願うという祈りを込めた贈り物だったのですが、平和への道のりは険しいようですね。
ちなみに、天長地久の意味を「邪悪を払い恒久平和を願う」と書いているウェブページもあるようですが、それはあくまでも「天長地久之鏑矢」に込められた意味であって、「天長地久」という四字熟語の本来の意味ではないと思います。

...I'm sorry that it is not possible to write in English.

lexico · 7 Aug 2005

Sasame(J.)/ Infoseek(E.) said:
傍若無人という四字熟語は、中国の『史記』に出てくる荊軻（けいか）という暗殺者のエピソードから生まれました。
The 4-character idiom of being audacious comes out to "Historical Memoirs" of China. It was born by the episode of an assassin called る荊軻 (is it けい?).

彼は高漸離（こうぜんり）という楽器の名手と一緒に街中で大酒を飲んで歌い騒ぎ、最後は感極まって泣き出したそうです。
He calls it quantity 漸離 (り not developing). Together with the expert of a musical instrument, it drinks hard, and sings, noise is made all over a town, and it is the last. It is said that it was filled with emotion and began to shed tears.

そんな彼の様子を「傍若無人」――まるで周囲に他の人たちなどいないようだ――と表現してあります。
his appearance -- "audacious" -- other men etc. are not completely in the circumference -- as -- it is -- it is expressed as --.

その「傍若無人」という中国語を日本語風に読むと「かたわらにひとなきがごとし（傍らに人無きが若し）」となります。
if the Chinese of "being audacious" is read in the style of Japanese -- "side -- every [ without 1 ] が -- carrying out (side 人無き if) -- " It becomes.

(The English text is raw Infoseek translation without editing; please do not bother Sasame for finished translation.)

Sasame is quite correct in pointing out the source; Sima Qian's Shiji 『史記』, Scroll 86, Biographies no. 26, The Biography of Jing Ke 荊軻. Examining the original context of 「傍若無人」 would be a good means of determining its usage.

史記 said:
「荆軻游於邯郸，鲁句踐與荆軻博,争道,鲁句踐怒而叱之,荆軻嘿而逃去,遂不復會。
Jingke travelled in Handan, where king Ju Jian of the state of Lu played the bo 博 game with him. They fought over a move, Ju Jian lost temper, and scolded him upon which Jing Ke quietly left never to return to meet him again.

荆軻旣至燕，愛燕之狗屠及善擊筑者高漸擊。
Jing Ke had already arrived at the State of Yan; he had become dear friends with the dog butcher and Gao Jianli the 5-stringed zhu-lute player.

荆軻嗜酒日與狗屠及高漸離飲於燕市。
Jing Ke liked wine; by day he would, together with the dog butcher and Gao Jianli, drink in the market place of Yan, the capital of the state of Yan.

酒酣以往高漸離擊筑荊軻和而歌於市中相樂也。已而相泣傍若無人。
When the wine's buzz lapsed, Gao Jianli would play the zhu lute, and Jing Ke would sing in harmony; thus in the market place they rejoiced in each other. Simply that, and they would weep together as if there were no one near by.

荆軻雖游於酒人乎然其爲人沈深好書其所游諸侯盡與其賢豪長者相结。
Although Jing Ke played among wine drinkers like this, his character was profound and loved reading; the lords of states with whom he associated bonded in friendship with him because they perceived his virtue and unrestrained manner merits.

其之燕,燕之處士田光先生亦善待之,知其非庸人也。」
When he went to Yan, the private scholar Tian Guang also treated him well, knowing his extraordinary person.

It can be seen that Jing Ke's not minding others' presence had nothing to do with "arrogance" but was due to his deep feelings towards his friends and whatever (?). Although he failed in assassinating the first emperor, he was loved by people of all classes, perhaps excluding royalty for obvious reasons, his name became a theme with its own school of politics, history, and pseudo-history that even grew into what later became novel literature 小說家.

s there kanji translation that is similar to the first one but more positive [?]

Here are a couple of possibilities of expressing a person who has exceeded the restraints of ordinary existence.

1. 力拔山氣蓋世: [My] strength extracts a mountain; [my] breath covers the world. --項羽 Xiang Yu's Under the Moat 垓下歌, later dramatised in the climax of Farewell My Concubine

力拔山兮氣蓋世
時不利兮騅不逝
騅不逝兮可奈何
虞兮虞兮奈若何

My strength extracts a mountain; o, my breath can cover the world,
The times are not favorable; o, my horse Zhui will not march.
My horse Zhui will not march; o, what is there I can do ?
O, Wu, O, Wu; what to do with you ?

Click to expand...

2. 天上天下唯我獨尊: In the whole universe, I am alone, honored. --Syakamuni Buddha

3. 浩然之氣: overwhelming/unhesitant/magnanimous spirit; a soul of natural greatness; Legge's usage: "passion-nature" --Mengzi

Jesse V · 8 Aug 2005

Japanese. I think classical Chinese would be the way to go, because it was monosyllabic, so you could make a whole sentence with only four characters (and probably even less).[/QUOTE]

Hmm.. that's interesting.. the classical chinese does have a nice look to it and she liked it a lot in the quick online translator i found.. a few problems with the way it translated back.. when desire becomes obsession changed to when desire becomes the product to read so obsession translates to when desire becomes the product to read.

I don't expect anyone to know the proper translation for it in 4 characters around here (if there are that'd be sweet) but can anyone point me towards the best place to get my answer on this?

Thanks

Jesse V · 8 Aug 2005

lexico said:
Sasame is quite correct in pointing out the source; Sima Qian's Shiji 『史記』, Scroll 86, Biographies no. 26, The Biography of Jing Ke 荊軻. Examining the original context of 「傍若無人」 would be a good means of determining its usage.It can be seen that Jing Ke's not minding others' presence had nothing to do with "arrogance" but was due to his deep feelings towards his friends and whatever (?). Although he failed in assassinating the first emperor, he was loved by people of all classes, perhaps excluding royalty for obvious reasons, his name became a theme with its own school of politics, history, and pseudo-history that even grew into what later became novel literature 小說家.
Here are a couple of possibilities of expressing a person who has exceeded the restraints of ordinary existence.

1. 力拔山氣蓋世: [My] strength extracts a mountain; [my] breath covers the world. --項羽 Xiang Yu's Under the Moat 垓下歌, later dramatised in the climax of Farewell My Concubine
2. 天上天下唯我獨尊: In the whole universe, I am alone, honored. --Syakamuni Buddha

3. 浩然之氣: overwhelming/unhesitant/magnanimous spirit; a soul of natural greatness; Legge's usage: "passion-nature" --Mengzi

I like these a lot.. thanks

sasame · 8 Aug 2005

Hello, lexico.
Thank you for supplementing!
補足してくれて、ありがとうございました！

Gaijinian · 8 Aug 2005

All I can help you out in, is that 傍 looks like the Chinese "to read" 读 du （a difference of イ・言). Maybe that helps...

Elizabeth · 8 Aug 2005

Gaijinian said:
All I can help you out in, is that 傍 looks like the Chinese "to read" 读 du （a difference of イ・言). Maybe that helps...

傍 is そば or beside, doesn't that make sense as a literal translation ?

Gaijinian · 8 Aug 2005

Oh yeah, know I remember that (the only other time I saw it, it had furigana...).

doesn't that make sense as a literal translation

Certainly not...

lexico · 9 Aug 2005

You're welcome, Jesse.
Hello, Sasame. Thanks for finding the passage in 史記 and offering your detailed comments. I can see you also love analysing words and context; that must be something we have in common. ^__^
Let me post the second half of your commentary on 「傍若無人」.

Sasame(J.)/Infoseek trans.(E.) said:
(paragraph 2.)

しかし、現代日本においては、傍若無人と形容をされる人というのは、ハタ迷惑な嫌われ者ばかりのようです。
however, in present age Japan, it expresses figuratively that it is audacious -- having -- saying [ る people ] -- HATA -- troublesome -- as [ be / it is disliked and / it / about / person ] .

周囲に人がいてもお構いなしの自己中心さで勝手気まま振る舞いをする人のことを「傍若無人」と形容するようになったようです。
even if people are in the circumference -- indifferent egocentricity さ -- selfish 気ま The thing of those who do ま振る舞い is described, saying "It is audacious". It seems that it became obtaining.

そういう使われ方をしている以上、刺青で「傍若無人」と彫るのは、あまりオススメできない気がします。
If such a usage is carried out at all, I feel OSUSUME [ carving with "it is audacious " by tattoo / seldom ].

ブリトニー・スピアーズがミステリアスという意味だと思って彫った「奇」の字のように、後々後悔する可能性が……(^_^;
BU "奇" which RITONI Spears regarded as it being the meaning of being mysterious, and was carved A possibility [ (^_^; ] of repenting the future like a character ....

まあ、あれが「奇妙」の「奇」だと思うから凹むわけで、「奇跡」の「奇」だと思えば良いんじゃないかと思いますが(^_^;;
since it thinks well that that is "strange" "奇", it dents -- dividing -- coming out -- what is necessary is just to think that it is "奇" of a "miracle" -- it is -- considering -- ます (^_^;;

The English text is raw Infoseek translation without editing; please do not bother Sasame for finished translation.

I can guess the general meaning from the machine translation, but HATA, OSUSUME, BU, RITONI are not translatable. Could you maybe tell me what they mean ? Thanks !

lexico · 9 Aug 2005

Jesse V said:
the first phrase she wanted was "When desire becomes obsession." What we thought we found was that 'When' and /becomes' are not in the Kanji language so thats an issue. Is that true?

I missed this part of your question earlier. McCrutch already answered in part; let me supplement several possibilities;

1) when: (McCrutch said) 時, (I agree with McCrutch)
2) to become: 化 'change, become,' 成 'complete,' 變 'change,' 爲 'make, become' 到 'arrive at, reach'
3) desire: 慾 'desire, need.' In addition to 'desire' this word can carry some sense of 'obsession,' hence arises some hesitation.
4) obsession: 執念 'tenacity of purpose,' 執着 'attachment,' 妄想, 'illusion, obsession' 依存 'dependency' 欲 'avarice'

Although there are many possible constructions, it is not clear words with the contrast between desire/obsession can be found in parallel in classical Chinese.

nice gaijin · 9 Aug 2005

I appreciate that everyone is being so helpful in this thread, but I feel I must raise the question... why does your friend want something she can't read permanently printed onto her skin? She's prepared to have something tattooed just because it's kanji and she likes how it looks? why feed the cliché? Why not pick something that has real meaning to her, since she'll be stuck with it for the rest of her life?

Sorry I just had to ask.

Elizabeth · 9 Aug 2005

My guess for "When desire becomes obsession" with the most kanji would be 切望が強迫観念を成る時 but the が, を, and る are necessary for grammar purposes.

を成る is grammatically erroneous...how about 「欲望が強迫観念になると」のほうが自然でしょうか？Could someone help with the Japanese translation of this question, please...

McCrutch67 · 10 Aug 2005

を成る is grammatically erroneous...how about 「欲望が強迫観念になると」のほうが自然でしょうか？

Oh yeah oops, heh heh. 間違いましたね

Need Help With Two Kanji Phrases Translated into English

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