lay vs. laid

[hirashin]

Dear native English speakers,

I have a question about the usage of the verbs "lie" and "lay".

In my grammar knowledge, "lay" is a transitive verb. It follows that
you can't say "I laid on the beach". But I hear native speakers often
say that.

Which do you prefer to say:
(a) I lay on the beach.
(b) I laid on the beach.

Hirashin

 

[Mike Cash]

There are many distinctions that native speakers can not (or do not) make anymore. Lie/lay is one of them.

The problem with your two examples is that they aren't in the same tense. Both of them are likely from a native speaker, depending on the circumstances.

 

[hirashin]

Hello, Mike.

I think they are in the same tense.

lie-lay-lain
lay -laid-laid

I think both sentences are in the past tense.


Hirashin

 

[ClarkH]

Hi Hirashin,

I think the sentences are in different tense as well. At least, if I heard someone speak each of those sentences to me, lay is present tense and laid is paste tense.

Mike is also correct that native speakers don't make a distinction between lay and lie. Honestly, I don't even know which I use. I just say whichever comes to mind first when I'm speaking. I think they are completely interchangeable, at least in conversational setting (perhaps not in an essay or English class). There really is no preference. However, I never hear anyone use "lain". I only hear people use lie or lay for present tense, and laid for paste tense. Nobody will be confused if you use either lie or lay.

I think lie is usually used to talk about resting, like on a bed or on the beach. Lay is used for objects, like laying down a tray of sushi on the table. Like this:

1. Please lay down the tray on the table.

I think it would be incorrect to say, "Please lie down the tray on the table," but people may sometimes say that (maybe 20% of the time or something), and it's not such a huge or noticeable mistake.

2. I'm going to lie down for a few minutes.

I think this is the correct usage of "lie", but you will often (49% of the time?) hear people say "I'm going to lay down for a few minutes."

In any case, if you master the usage of lay/lie, you will be far ahead of most native English speakers. I really don't think you need to worry about it, unless you're writing something formal, like some college papers or something. Then use the spell/grammar checker!

Clark

 

[Mike Cash]

Clark, "lie" is intransitive and "lay" is transitive. That is why "I am going to lie down" is used while "I'm going to lie the tray on the table" is not. The latter sentence has a direct object (tray) and hence requires a transitive verb.

I think that many native English speakers lack an awareness of transitive/intransitive in our daily speech, and the schools do a crap job of teaching it.

You can see the results when people attempt to learn Japanese, where the distinction between transitive/intransitive verb pairs and the use of particles indicating direct and indirect objects is clear and important. People who never learned an awareness of the distinction in English have more trouble picking up on it.

 

[ClarkH]

Thanks, Mike. You can count me among the native English speakers that are unaware of transitive/intransitive verbs. The last time I recall learning anything about English grammar was in 4th grade, about 17 years ago. I'm pretty sure we didn't cover transitive/intransitive verbs, and not much emphasis was put on learning specifics about grammar through the rest of school. I suppose it's assumed that students will develop adequate grammatical skills through daily use of the language, without having to be taught the details. Now I'm sorry to hear that it'll put me at a disadvantage as I begin to study Japanese more seriously.

 

[Mike Cash]

The American education system dropped the ball on your generation.

When I was in school we had Spelling as a separate class through the sixth grade. Then for the six years of junior high and high school the English class spent half of each year on Literature and the other half on Grammar.

I can't tell you how disgusted I was while teaching English here when immediately before he went in to teach a lesson on pronouns a young college graduate asked me, "What's a pronoun?"

 

[undrentide]

(a) I lay on the beach.
(b) I laid on the beach.

As Mike pointed out, lay (laid-laid) is transitive verb which always takes object.
If you want to use lay instead of lie and express the same thing as (a), I think you should add the object - I would say
(b) I laid myself on the beach.
I'm not a native speaker of English and it's only my guess.

 

[ClarkH]

(a) I lay on the beach.
(b) I laid on the beach.
...
(b) I laid myself on the beach.

I may not be as familiar with transitive/intransitive verbs as Mike or undrentide, but again these sound like they are in different tense. (a) sounds present tense and (b) sounds paste tense. If I heard someone speak sentence (a) and either of sentence (b), I would not say they are equivalent.

 

[Mike Cash]

How about passive voice? "I got laid on the beach".

 

[ClarkH]

How about passive voice? "I got laid on the beach".

My apologies, Mike. Perhaps you could guess by now that I wouldn't know what "passive voice" means either, but this still made me LOL.

I'm so embarrassed about my lack of grammar skills... Still I'd like to provide feedback about conversational skills where I can.

 

[Mike Cash]

Passive voice is best explained by contrasting with the active voice:

A. He closed the window.
P. The window was closed by him.

A. My mother baked this pie.
P. This pie was baked by my mother.

See? You've been using it your whole life and just never had a name for it until now. And this is another of those things where being conscious of the difference helps when learning Japanese, as the passive voice is indicated through a difference in verb conjugation.

If in the process of learning Japanese you don't also end up learning a whole lot about English, you're probably doing it wrong.

 

[AJBryant]

I am one of those who weeps for the English language. Our primary schools have seriously dropped the ball. No one teaches (or gives a damn) about grammar anymore, and it's creating a generation of near-illiterates.

 

[hirashin]

My apologies, Mike. Perhaps you could guess by now that I wouldn't know what "passive voice" means either, but this still made me LOL.

I'm so embarrassed about my lack of grammar skills... Still I'd like to provide feedback about conversational skills where I can.

Don't be so embarrassed, Clark. It's only natural that a native English speaker does not know much about English grammar. Most Japanese people also don't know much about Japanese grammar. (Am I saying it right? Please correct it if needed)

What I want to know from native English speakers is not what is grammatically correct, but what is commonly used. I always want to know how native speakers use English.

No matter whether "I laid on the beach" is grammatically correct or not, Clark gave me a good piece of information about how native speakers use "laid".

Thank you, everyone. Thank you , Clark. (^_^)/

Hirashin

 

[eeky]

"I laid on the beach" is wrong (except possibly if you are a chicken).

 

[ClarkH]

I must say, that's pretty nit-picky. Lay has dozens of definitions, and laid is the paste tense form.

So, eeky, what's the correct way to say it then?

 

[eeky]

I must say, that's pretty nit-picky. Lay has dozens of definitions, and laid is the paste tense form.

So, eeky, what's the correct way to say it then?

The verb required here is "lie", not "lay". The past tense of "lie" is "lay", so it should be "I lay on the beach", assuming you are talking about a past event.

Edited: At least, this is true in British English, where, as far as I know, all commentators agree that such use of "lay" for "lie" is an error (or at very best a nonstandard dialect form). I am not quite so sure about the situation in the US. I'd be surprised if it was accepted as formally correct, but perhaps conversationally it is tolerated.

 

[ClarkH]

In America, I have never heard anyone say a sentence similar to, "yesterday, I lay on the beach all day." Do people really speak sentences like this in Britain? Perhaps. I have no idea, really. In America, it would sound extremely strange and incorrect.

It just goes back to what Mike said, that we no longer make a distinction between "lay" and "lie". What I think is important, and as hirashin specified, is how words are currently used in conversation. At least I think that's what's important when there is an overwhelming majority of agreement about it. If there is frequent disagreement about the usage, then it's best to fall back on what is "formally correct". In other cases however (like with "lay" vs "lie"), I think what is "formally correct" can change over time. Again, I can't speak about how these words are used in the UK. I can only speak about the US, and I've never heard anyone use "lay" as paste tense.

 

[eeky]

In America, I have never heard anyone say a sentence similar to, "yesterday, I lay on the beach all day." Do people really speak sentences like this in Britain? Perhaps. I have no idea, really. In America, it would sound extremely strange and incorrect.

Clark, "I lay on the beach all day" (past tense) is correct in standard British English, and I am almost certain that it is also correct in standard American English. It's possible that you have heard the "error" so often that you are unfamiliar with the correct version.

You may wish to review some of the many explanations of this "lie" / "lay" confusion at:

Google Search

I cannot find a single one that condones a sentence like "I laid on the beach".

 

[Mike Cash]

I have to agree with eeky.

The problem stems from the past tense (not "paste" tense) of one being identical to the present tense of the other, making it sound "weird" to us and causing us to "correct" to something that is unambiguously past tense, even though it is the wrong one of the transitive/intransitive pair.

 

[ClarkH]

Wow, I can't believe I kept typing paste. Five times! Damn! No excuse for that. My apologies.

Anyway...

It's possible that you have heard the "error" so often that you are unfamiliar with the correct version.

I couldn't agree more. I've heard it used this way 100% of the time. In fact, lay is used as lie so frequently that Websters has added lie as a nonstandard definition of lay to their dictionary.

verb (used without object)
29. to lay eggs.
30. to wager or bet.
31. to apply oneself vigorously.
32. to deal or aim blows vigorously (usually followed by on, at, about, etc.).
33. Nonstandard . lie.

 

[haibuihoang]

How about passive voice? "I got laid on the beach".

Oh Mike, I think this sentence has the meaning "I made love on the beach"

 

[Mike Cash]

You are correct.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Damn! And here I thought I was getting lucky!