kyotolites + offer of tea

nhk9 · 27 Jun 2008

Kyotolites (note the town, but the people who live there) are generally perceived rather negatively in Japan, it seems. As you know, Japan is a society built based on the foundations of "tatemae and honne", but the kyotolites seem to take it one step further. The common understanding is that, if one starts to offer you "tea", it should be time for you to get the f*** out of the place. Actually I was offered tea once by my student's wife. The interesting thing was that the tea was offered pretty much at the end of our session, instead of before, or during our session. Although I knew what that supposed to mean, I took the offer anyway, playing the dumb gaijin.

Having studied Japanese language & culture for many years, it has struck me that Japanese culture is not really as exciting as I had thought at the beginning. While the food is still terrific and the country is still an exciting destination for tourism, the hypocriticism and the constant solicitations for free english practices can just drive a gaijin nuts. The condition under which I would ever consider living there would be a role where I wouldn't have to deal with them all the time.

Pachipro · 27 Jun 2008

The same holds true when one is invited for a dinner or get together. When the rice is served (much like the tea in your case) it means the function is over, plain and simple and no one gets upset or angry or takes it as personal affront to them. It's just a polite way of saying "The End". It's a helluva lot better, and polite, IMO than waiting for ages for the loud mouthed bore to get the hint that the party is over when he/she is the only one left as is so common in the US and maybe Canada.

"Having studied the language and culture for many years" you probably know this, so what is the real point of this thread as it should not be a culture shock to one who has "studied for many years". It should be a given as well as the "free English practices".

AroundTheWorld · 27 Jun 2008

nhk9 said:
The condition under which I would ever consider living there would be a role where I wouldn't have to deal with them all the time.

Go check out the "I'd like to buy a house in Okinawa" thread.

I've heard after 60+ years of having to put up with our troops, Okinawans tolerate us a little better. Probably not the older ones, though.

undrentide · 27 Jun 2008

Ah, it's the famous ochazuke (not ocha/tea) story of Kyoto!

I don't think you should be worried (or offended) about the tea offered to you during your stay in Kyoto.
I'm from Tokyo and to me (and most of non-Kyotolites) Kyoto is a great city with a long history, and people are very conservative and very proud of themselves and Kyoto.
I've heard that people who moved in Kyoto and have lived there for more than 10 years, are still regarded by the locals as "outsider" (or non-Kyotolites).

The story about ochazuke (which is called "bubuzuke" there) is, when the guest is staying for long hours, they offer ochazuke saying "bubuzuke demo ikaga dosuka?" (how about something like ochazuke?) implying "it's getting late and time for supper, so you'd better leave now".
According to the stories I've read/heard, if the people don't take the hint and take the phrase literally instead and accept the offer "thank you, I'd like to have some, then" etc., they'd laugh at the "country bumpkins who do not know the mammer" behind their backs.

*How much this is still in practice, I have no idea. Maybe it used be but not any more with younger generations.

My guess is for them being straight forward is rude and prefer the round-about way of saying something. Maybe it originally came from the politeness (i.e. consideration not to offend others by saying things too directly). But it's a local code, not universal and mostly not understood by the people from other places, for "strangers" from Kyotolites' perspective this offering-ochazuke-ritual does not work well and became the source of cultural gap conflicts(?) between Kyotolites vs outsiders (yosomono)...

The above statement about Kyotolites is general image people hold, not that all or most of the poeple in Kyoto are so mean and against non-Kyotolites. ;-)

nhk9 · 27 Jun 2008

Pachipro said:
The same holds true when one is invited for a dinner or get together. When the rice is served (much like the tea in your case) it means the function is over, plain and simple and no one gets upset or angry or takes it as personal affront to them. It's just a polite way of saying "The End". It's a helluva lot better, and polite, IMO than waiting for ages for the loud mouthed bore to get the hint that the party is over when he/she is the only one left as is so common in the US and maybe Canada.
"Having studied the language and culture for many years" you probably know this, so what is the real point of this thread as it should not be a culture shock to one who has "studied for many years". It should be a given as well as the "free English practices".

It doesn't necessarily have to be your own culture shock in order to be posted here right. It was at one time for me, a culture shock, for your information. The point for this thread is to share information with others. I am sure that there will be others who will look at this post and may not have known what we are talking about. And yes, you can start quoting me like as if you're a learned academic, but I have to tell you that I don't find it particularly tasteful for our purposes here.

nhk9 · 27 Jun 2008

undrentide said:
Ah, it's the famous ochazuke (not ocha/tea) story of Kyoto!
I don't think you should be worried (or offended) about the tea offered to you during your stay in Kyoto.
I'm from Tokyo and to me (and most of non-Kyotolites) Kyoto is a great city with a long history, and people are very conservative and very proud of themselves and Kyoto.
I've heard that people who moved in Kyoto and have lived there for more than 10 years, are still regarded by the locals as "outsider" (or non-Kyotolites).
The story about ochazuke (which is called "bubuzuke" there) is, when the guest is staying for long hours, they offer ochazuke saying "bubuzuke demo ikaga dosuka?" (how about something like ochazuke?) implying "it's getting late and time for supper, so you'd better leave now".
According to the stories I've read/heard, if the people don't take the hint and take the phrase literally instead and accept the offer "thank you, I'd like to have some, then" etc., they'd laugh at the "country bumpkins who do not know the mammer" behind their backs.
*How much this is still in practice, I have no idea. Maybe it used but not any more with younger generations.
My guess is for them being straight forward is rude and prefer the round-about way of saying something. Maybe it originally came from the politeness (i.e. consideration not to offend others by saying things too directly). But it's a local code, not universal and mostly not understood by the people from other places, for "strangers" from Kyotolites' perspective this offering-ochazuke-ritual does not work well and became the source of cultural gap conflicts(?) between Kyotolites vs outsiders (yosomono)...
The above statement about Kyotolites is general image people hold, not that all or most of the poeple in Kyoto are so mean and against non-Kyotolites. ;-)

Thank you for the thoughtful and informative post, undrentide san, as always.

Actually I had my meeting here in Canada with a Kyoto couple. The wife asked me whether or not I wanted tea. I was so tired at that time, so I just played the dumb gaijin card (instead of saying no, since otherwise you'd have to say it a few times) and sat there for another 30minutes or so (the ea was really hot).

I spent a few days in Kyoto a couple of years ago, and I enjoyed walking through the city quite a bit. I did not encounter the "stereotypical" kyotolites that so many people have talked.

Actually I am surprised at how so many Japanese people (esp. Osakans) tend to have negative views on Kyotolites. The reactions that I got once I started talking about Kyotolites were usually reactions of dissatisfaction, something which I found weird at first.

Pachipro · 28 Jun 2008

NHK9 said:
It doesn't necessarily have to be your own culture shock in order to be posted here right. It was at one time for me, a culture shock, for your information. The point for this thread is to share information with others. I am sure that there will be others who will look at this post and may not have known what we are talking about. And yes, you can start quoting me like as if you're a learned academic, but I have to tell you that I don't find it particularly tasteful for our purposes here.

Had you prefaced your thread with something like "When I first started living in Japan....", or "One thing I didn't understand about...." or something along those lines, I may have understand the point of your thread. However, when one who has lived there for a while makes a thread like this with no explaination, it leads me to believe that it is just another angry foreigner thread bashing Japan and her customs, especially when you say,

"the hypocriticism and the constant solicitations for free english practices can just drive a gaijin nuts. The condition under which I would ever consider living there would be a role where I wouldn't have to deal with them all the time."

By them do you mean the Japanese or Kyotolites? Also, it is only in response to undrentides response do we discover that your experience actually happened in Canada and not in Kyoto as I was led to believe. I think you should have made that clear from the start and maybe there would have been no misunderstanding on my part. Sorry if I offended you.

kyotolites + offer of tea

nhk9

先輩

Pachipro

JREF Resident Alien

AroundTheWorld

Devourer of Souls

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

nhk9

先輩

nhk9

先輩

Pachipro

JREF Resident Alien

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