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koto

Laughing Larry

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Could you please tell me what is the use of koto in the following sentences?

私はあなたの言っていることがわからない。
watashi wa anata no itta iru koto ga wakaranai

僕が言ったことを取り消す。
boku ga itta koto wo torikesu

thanks
 
Would you understand it if it was:
僕が言ったのを取り消す?

Because こと has the same function here. Basically, it is turning the preceding verb/phrase into a noun.
 
Identify clause
(僕が言った)こと(を取り消す)
koto in this case is working as hmm, I don't remember...oh ya, marking a noun clause or something alike. read below for more:
koto & to iu in "to iu koto", "to iu imi", "to iu no wa" etc | Japan Forum

私は(あなたの言っている)こと(がわからない)
same as above
 
You can also here think of it in its most basic form -- as "thing" -- so "that thing you said" or "that thing I said."
 
AJBryant said:
You can also here think of it in its most basic form -- as "thing" -- so "that thing you said" or "that thing I said."
Click to expand...

wow that's great! so the following could be translated as:

watashi wa anata no itte iru koto ga wakaranai

I don't understand the thing you are saying (where /itte iru/ is /saying/ -te form + iru)

is that fine??
 
Laughing Larry said:
wow that's great! so the following could be translated as:

watashi wa anata no itte iru koto ga wakaranai

I don't understand the thing you are saying (where /itte iru/ is /saying/ -te form + iru)

is that fine??
Click to expand...

Do not allow yourself to get caught up on exact wordings for translations, because a lot of stuff does not translate directly. Japanese says things in different ways than English does. While things are still simple now it is fine, but as you get more advanced you will just be frustrated if you try to translate every little particle. Try learning to inherently understand the meaning, like a native speaker would.

In my opinion, adding the word "thing" to the English sentence is not necessary. The sentence simply means: I don't understand what you are saying (or talking about).
 
nekojita said:
Would you understand it if it was:
僕が言ったのを取り消す?

Because こと has the same function here. Basically, it is turning the preceding verb/phrase into a noun.
Click to expand...
I don't think 言ったのを is very correct, though.
 
Purely grammatically, こと in the first example sentence is a pronoun, and the second one can be interpreted both as a pronoun and a nominalizer.
In the first one, the subject("I") can't understand "the content you're saying" or "what you're saying", not "the fact/action that you're saying" or "if you're saying or not." Thus, this こと doesn't refer to the clause あなたが/の言っている itself. See the difference of following two sentences.

私はあなたの言っていることがわからない。
私はあなたが（何かを）言っているか（どうか）わから ない。

As for the second example 僕が言ったことを取り消す, it can mean either "I take back what I said" or "I take back the fact I said (something.)" The former is the pronoun, whereas the latter is the nominalizer. The difference in the meaning is subtle, though.
 
The same concept with easier grammar also makes for interesting speculation in English.

"I regret that I said it" could be interpreted both as remorse that something was uttered (perhaps in an inappropriate context) OR honest self-reproach as to the content, what it was that was said.

In Japanese :

それを言ってしまった事を後悔した、そんなこと言わなければよかった、自分の言ったことを後悔しています。

Simply, I regreted that I said that ? I wish I hadn't said such a thing? I regret what I said ?

私はそう言ったことを後悔している 、ということ言っているだけでしょう？？



Regret over the fact, not necessarily the deed, we more carefully express as "It was an unfortunate choice of words" or some such NOT so clever euphemism.

「語の不運な選択」など。。。 誤って話されてあったね

私が今、後悔しているのは、自分の言った事でなくて、それが言われてしまったということです。
 
Last edited:
What the differences between the uses of の and こと (and I think I've seen もの used an a nominalizer too...?)?

I've seen them used in differen types of sentences, and usually I just sort of guess when to use each, but I don't actually know perfectly when to use the different ones.
 
It depends on the type of the verb in the main clause which nominalizer should be used.

1)verbs basically used with こと
verbs regarding thoughts, communication/affection with words
言う、話す、伝える、教える、知らせる、命令する、要 求する、考える、思う、信じる、、、

彼女が出て行ったことを彼に話した。
彼女が出て行かないことを信じた。

This こと is often interchangeable to the quotational と.
彼女が出て行ったと彼に話した。
彼女が出て行かないと信じた。


2)verbs basically used with の
sensory/perceptive verbs, verbs which express that an action/movement comes into effect at the scene, at the time.
見る、見える、聞く、聞こえる、感じる、手伝う、助け る、とめる、待つ、、、

彼女が部屋から出て行くのを見た。
彼女が部屋から出て行くのをとめた。

This の can be interchangeable to the nominalizer ところ in some cases.
彼女が部屋から出て行くところを見た。
△彼女が部屋から出て行くところをとめた。(This sentence is correct, but the meaning is changed from の.)


もの is used only as a pronoun.
 

Haha, yeah. Sorry about that. I guess I've forgotten when you use which, or at the time I didn't really understand or something. Although the way toritoribe just explained it cleared up a lot of the confusion I had.
Oh, and if you didn't notice, I asked this question once a year. Maybe I'l ask it again in 2010

And thanks toritoribe
 
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