Kore/Kono, Sore/Sono and Are/Ano

Coffeesan · 4 Oct 2011

Been gone 3 weeks with no internet whos missed me? Dont everyone shout at once now

Anways I'm wondering about 'This and That' in Japanese I've always used:

このKono - ''This''
そのSono - ''That''
あのAno - Literally ''That over there''

But a few books seem to swap them with これKore, それSore and あれAre but I've not found anything which says why and if at all they mean different things and are meant to be used in different contexts?

Half-n-Half · 4 Oct 2011

この、その、and あの are all used like adjectives i.e. この本、その本、あの本 while これ、それ、and あれ are all pronouns that don't have to come before anything.

charusu · 4 Oct 2011

It helped me when I found out that これ + の = この (with の being the particle の that is used attributively and possessively). A native might be able to say it more correctly but it is my understanding that over time これの became この, so when you say この本 you are "really saying" これの本. This is the reason Half-n-Half-san is completely correct. When you are using the pronouns by themselves you use ~れ, when modifying a noun you use ~の.

Casey4825 · 4 Oct 2011

The こ～、そ～、あ～、ど～ series is confusing at first to an English speaker since there are more words to do the job whereas we have less. これ、それ、あれ act like pronouns and take the place of the object being referred to. この、その、あの act like adjectives and are immediately followed by the item being referred to. There also are other こ～、そ～、あ～、ど～ to denote the kind of, the manner, and location.

visser300 · 5 Oct 2011

Casey4825 said:
The こ～、そ～、あ～、ど～ series is confusing at first to an English speaker since there are more words to do the job whereas we have less. これ、それ、あれ act like pronouns and take the place of the object being referred to. この、その、あの act like adjectives and are immediately followed by the item being referred to. There also are other こ～、そ～、あ～、ど～ to denote the kind of, the manner, and location.

May you list them all. My Japanese teacher could not teach properly about this

Toritoribe · 5 Oct 2011

Demonstratives in Japanese

pronoun
thing
これ[kore] それ[sore] あれ[are] どれ[dore]

location
ここ[koko] そこ[soko] あそこ[asoko] どこ[doko]

direction
formal
こちら[kochira] そちら[sochira] あちら[achira] どちら[dochira]
casual
こっち[kocchi] そっち[socchi] あっち[acchi] どっち[docchi]

person
*こなた[konata] そなた[sonata] あなた[anata] どなた[donata]
formal
こちら[kochira] そちら[sochira] あちら[achira] どちら[dochira]
casual/rude
こいつ[koitsu] そいつ[soitsu] あいつ[aitsu] どいつ[doitsu]

attributive
この[kono] その[sono] あの[ano] どの[dono]
manner
こんな[konna] そんな[sonna] あんな[anna] どんな[donna]

adverbial
こう[kou] そう[kou] ああ[aa] どう[dou]

*note:
こなた[konata] and そなた[sonata] are obsolete.
あなた[anata] is a second person pronoun now, as you all would know. The meaning was changed in the mid-early modern period.

eeky · 5 Oct 2011

visser300 said:
May you list them all. My japanese teacher could not teach properly about this

That sounds a bit worrying ... !

Coffeesan · 5 Oct 2011

Toritoribe said:
Demonstratives in Japanese

pronoun
thing
これ[kore] それ[sore] あれ[are] どれ[dore]

location
ここ[koko] そこ[soko] あそこ[asoko] どこ[doko]

direction
formal
こちら[kochira] そちら[sochira] あちら[achira] どちら[dochira]
casual
こっち[kocchi] そっち[socchi] あっち[acchi] どっち[docchi]

person
*こなた[konata] そなた[sonata] あなた[anata] どなた[donata]
formal
こちら[kochira] そちら[sochira] あちら[achira] どちら[dochira]
casual/rude
こいつ[koitsu] そいつ[soitsu] あいつ[aitsu] どいつ[doitsu]

attributive
この[kono] その[sono] あの[ano] どの[dono]
manner
こんな[konna] そんな[sonna] あんな[anna] どんな[donna]

adverbial
こう[kou] そう[kou] ああ[aa] どう[dou]

*note:
こなた[konata] and そなた[sonata] are obsolete.
あなた[anata] is a second person pronoun now, as you all would know. The meaning was changed in the mid-early modern period.

So regarding the location and 'thing' versions the difference would be kinda something like saying...

''That is a dog'' both seeing it and pointing etc and using ''Sore''

(Talking about a play) ''Yes I've also been too that'' with ''Sono''

The first is talking about an animate, physical thing, namely the dog. Whereas the second is talking about an immaterial, non-physical thing. Is that basicall it? So location can be used for concepts and ideas also? A bit like ''Yeah I thought that as well'' or ''Hmmm I was thinking about this all morning''.

Mike Cash · 5 Oct 2011

No....I think you've missed it a bit.

The difference is like the difference in English between "That is my dog" and "That dog is mine." The former would be それ as the "that" is standing alone. The latter would be その（いぬ） as the "that" is modifying the adjacent noun.

In your latter example (about the play), it would be impossible to say without seeing how the Japanese sentence is worded whether それ or その would be appropriate. Both would be possible.

The key lies in understanding the grammatical notion of attribution. We do it in English by word order/position ("this man", "that idea") while Japanese accomplishes the function with the set of words この、その、あの、どの（「このおとこ」、「そのアイデア」）. As you can see, whether the following noun is concrete (man) or abstract (idea) has nothing to do with it.

Coffeesan · 5 Oct 2011

Mike Cash said:
No....I think you've missed it a bit.

The difference is like the difference in English between "That is my dog" and "That dog is mine." The former would be それ as the "that" is standing alone. The latter would be その（いぬ） as the "that" is modifying the adjacent noun.

In your latter example (about the play), it would be impossible to say without seeing how the Japanese sentence is worded whether それ or その would be appropriate. Both would be possible.

The key lies in understanding the grammatical notion of attribution. We do it in English by word order/position ("this man", "that idea") while Japanese accomplishes the function with the set of words この、その、あの、どの（「このおとこ」、「そのアイデア」）. As you can see, whether the following noun is concrete (man) or abstract (idea) has nothing to do with it.

Mmm I understand it better now. But back to the concepts and references again.. You say its okay to say something like ''I've seen that movie before'' or ''I've been to that play already'' etc with either sore or sono it doesnt matter. When would you use Are/Ano in such a context though? I've always thought of the that-close and that-far thing in terms of distance. If its close by you can use this and that-short but if its in the distance far away you use that-far either ano/are. But when you're referencing something like a movie you both know whats being talked about so ano/are and sono/sore should be interchangable right? Because its an immaterial thing that cannot be physically seen so the rule of distance kinda doesnt work or whether you can see it.

Mike Cash · 5 Oct 2011

Think of it as: here, there, and over yonder

Seriously, though, it can be highly subjective and it really isn't worth worrying about too much. The first apartment I lived in here was on land newly reclaimed from the sea and our building was one of only two or three that had even been built yet. There were no bus lines, no trains, and I often had to take a taxi home from the station. When we reached a certain point, I would say to the taxi driver (while pointing), そのアパート, and he would confirm, あのアパート？....then I would feel dejected at having gotten it wrong. Determined to turn it into a learning experience, the next time I would say (at the same point), あのアパート....only to have the driver confirm, そのアパート？ I made sure to conduct this little exercise at the same distance from the apartment each time, and what I learned was, "It's subjective". Don't lose sleep over it.

The differences between それ/その and あれ/あの....yes, you do have to get those right.

Toritoribe · 5 Oct 2011

Coffeesan said:
I've always thought of the that-close and that-far thing in terms of distance. If its close by you can use this and that-short but if its in the distance far away you use that-far either ano/are.

The demonstratives in Japanese language are not distance-driven things but more likely relation-driven things. Basically, こ is for the speaker's(= first person's) side. そ is for the addressee's(= second person's), and あ is for the ones that are neither the speaker's nor the addressee's (= third person's). For instance, when a dog runs to a person and you alert him/her to it, you need to say 犬がそっちに行った, whether he/she is nearby you or far away from you.

As for the movie/play in your example, when you refer to the movie that is mentioned by the person you're talking with, その is most natural.
e.g.
A: あの映画見た？
B: いや、その映画は見てない。

Of course, the difference between あ and そ are sometimes vague, as already mentioned.

Kore/Kono, Sore/Sono and Are/Ano

Coffeesan

先輩

Half-n-Half

先輩

charusu

先輩

Casey4825

ﾅ?Oﾂ人

visser300

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

eeky

先輩

Coffeesan

先輩

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Coffeesan

先輩

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

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