Kawattekuru

[nhk9]

Some Japanese sentences:

人によって違ってくる
いい点が取れるか、先生によって変わってくる

I am curious at the linguistic use of "kuru" at the end of the sentences above (may not be good sentences, just for the sake of illustrating the use). From textbook we often learn something like "ni yotte chigau", but it seems like the more natural way of saying things is with the kuru attached. When I was taking intermediate Japanese back in school they taught us the usages of -iku, -kuru, -mairu etc. but it doesn't seem like the kuru is really necessary here. Help please!

 

[Glenn]

Alright, I'm assuming that you got these from native speakers and aren't asking if they are natural now. I wasn't sure if you had come up with these yourself and were asking whether they were good sentences.

I think that the くる meaning in each of these is like the "start" meaning where they show some progressive change. So in the case of your examples the progressive change is dependent on something, whether it be people or teachers. I believe the versions without くる don't have this sense of gradual or progressive change.

 

[nhk9]

Actually I hear the version with kuru much more than the one without when talking to native speakers. After I realized the existence of this, I started to notice that it comes up often in essays as well. I think your explanation is a good one, although I am still baffled at the way the Japanese created their language. Oh well, what's bad can be good as well... since we can be awfully bad at grammar (not just us, but the natives themselves too), and still get away with it, such as in the case of adding "toka after shitari" etc.

 

[Glenn]

Haha, I know what you mean. There are certainly many different levels between perfectly natural and ungrammatical. Not all that long ago I wrote a Chinese sentence that I thought was pretty bad once I realized that I was thinking in Japanese (L2 interference?), but the person I was talking to understood it (much to my surprise!). Funny how that can work.

 

[Elizabeth]

Actually I hear the version with kuru much more than the one without when talking to native speakers.

You mean you've heard the above sentences much more with "kuru" ? :?
There's no hard and fast rule and it isn't necessary except to show the progression of a general trend or continuation of a process from past to present.
I've also been told I should definately use kuru in cases which it turns out next time the native speaker doesn't follow themselves.

I don't even think it necessary has to be terribly gradual. Is it possible with the weather for instance to make sense with sentences like
一週間の中で、急に暖かくなって随分と夏らしくなって きました。夏が近づいているとき。。。

 

[Glenn]

Yeah, maybe I should have left out "gradual." I think your sentence looks fine, but I'd like to hear a native's take on it.

 

[undrentide]

I'm quotating from dictionaries.
【大辞林】
動詞の連用形またはこれに「て（で）」の付いた形に付いて、動作が進行し、また、事態が推移する意を表す。
【広辞苑】
(8)(動詞の連用形またはそれに「て」を添えた形に付いて)
(ア)次第にそうなる、また、そういう状態が出現する意を表す。

It is really difficult even for the natives (or because I'm native?) to explain exact different between
人によって違う and 違ってくる
先生によって変わる and 変わってくる

My mental image is 違う 変わる just state the fact as it is something already exist, while 違ってくる 変わってくる shows the situation has not been fixed yet, and if it takes this turn, it becomes (kind of change) to this, or that turn brings that... as if things and evens are in progress in front of you.
This sense of movement has something to do with... with... with.... sorry I cannot put it into words Ohhhh.....

急に暖かくなって随分と夏らしくなって きました。
When I hear this sentence, I feel the the change (becoming more summer like) is rather a gradual change, even it is caused by the "sudden change of temperature" which itself is not something gradual.

Maybe my explanation is not very clear or understandable, because I'm talking based on just my kind of instinct/feeling of a native, it may not sound very logical.
I hope my poor attempt to convey the feeling behind the expression or connotation or whatever, gives some ideas about てくる.

 

[epigene]

Another way of expressing it (not that I can explain well, though... )

"Kawaru" would be a declarative indicating change: A change takes place (in the past, present or future depending on the issue).
"Kawattekuru" is a statement referring to the relative condition for change (at least in the mind of the speaker, if not in fact): If something happens, then it will/may be so.

Just my two yen...

 

[Elizabeth]

急に暖かくなって随分と夏らしくなって きました。
When I hear this sentence, I feel the the change (becoming more summer like) is rather a gradual change, even it is caused by the "sudden change of temperature" which itself is not something gradual.
Maybe my explanation is not very clear or understandable, because I'm talking based on just my kind of instinct/feeling of a native, it may not sound very logical.
I hope my poor attempt to convey the feeling behind the expression or connotation or whatever, gives some ideas about てくる.

なんとなく、わかりましたよ。ありがとうございます。

とにかく、温度の変化を見る限り、
多分、すでに、暖かいときに 急に、かなり暑くなるという雰囲気が文脈に表われますね。

 

[Elizabeth]

Some Japanese sentences:
人によって違ってくる

Based on the above explanations, then, the need for 'kuru' here could indicate
the answer, opinion, solution, etc is perhaps under the writer's control currently but will become increasingly dependent on another person(s) ?

If only I/we could phrase this phenomenon so eloquently in English !

 

[Glenn]

epigeneさん、undrentideさん、説明ありがとうございました！