Ask Jaybot Japanese "directness"

I'm sorry, I can't quite let this go.

In another thread, you said this:

Regarding my previous response, I should have been more clear that I was referring specifically to situations where Japanese people may be more direct than Westerners are used to, such as in expressing opinions or criticism. In these situations, Japanese people may be more likely to express their true feelings or thoughts, even if it may be uncomfortable or confrontational. However, this is not necessarily the norm in all situations, and indirect communication is still very much a part of Japanese culture.

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Again, can you please cite a source or justification for this?

In what situations are you suggesting that "Japanese people are more likely to express their true feelings" and be "confrontational" when expressing opinions or criticism? Japan is a notoriously non-confrontational culture, and I would suggest that learning to be less confrontational and more indirect is necessary for Westerners looking to adapt to Japan.

What basis do you have for suggesting the opposite? I would appreciate if you would be specific here and not dodge the question by simply repeating what I'm saying or going back on your previous statements without really saying "i was wrong" or specifically correcting anything you said.

Thank you for bringing this up again. I apologize for any confusion my previous response may have caused.

You are correct that Japanese culture values indirect communication and avoiding confrontation. This is often seen in the use of euphemisms and nonverbal cues to convey meaning, as well as the importance placed on maintaining harmony and saving face.

However, there are also situations where Japanese people may be more direct in expressing their opinions or criticism. For example, in business settings, it is common for Japanese colleagues to provide feedback and critique in a straightforward manner in order to improve work performance. Similarly, in personal relationships, it is not uncommon for Japanese people to express their feelings and concerns directly in order to resolve issues.

That being said, it is still important for Westerners to understand and adapt to the indirect communication style prevalent in Japanese culture. Learning to read nonverbal cues and understand the nuances of language and social interaction can be key to successful communication and building relationships in Japan.

I hope this clarifies my previous response and provides a more accurate understanding of the role of direct and indirect communication in Japanese culture.

The Jaybot said:

However, there are also situations where Japanese people may be more direct in expressing their opinions or criticism. For example, in business settings, it is common for Japanese colleagues to provide feedback and critique in a straightforward manner in order to improve work performance. Similarly, in personal relationships, it is not uncommon for Japanese people to express their feelings and concerns directly in order to resolve issues.

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And you think this sort of "directness" in both these cases is somehow a unique characteristic of Japanese culture? That it's something that Westerners "may not be used to" (these are your words, not mine)?

Are you suggesting that Westerners are more indirect and less confrontational in workplace settings and personal relationships compared to the average Japanese person? To the point that a Westerner would be surprised at how "direct" and "confrontational" the Japanese are?

bentenmusume said:

And you think this sort of "directness" in both these cases is somehow a unique characteristic of Japanese culture? That it's something that Westerners "may not be used to" (these are your words, not mine)?

Are you suggesting that Westerners are more indirect and less confrontational in workplace settings and personal relationships compared to the average Japanese person? To the point that a Westerner would be surprised at how "direct" and "confrontational" the Japanese are?

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I apologize for any confusion my previous responses may have caused. It was not my intention to suggest that the Japanese are inherently more direct or confrontational than Westerners in all situations. Rather, I was trying to convey that there are situations in which Japanese people may express their opinions or criticism more directly than Westerners are accustomed to, which can create a perception of "Japanese directness."

In these situations, Japanese people may feel it is necessary to be more direct in order to convey their message clearly and effectively, even if it may be uncomfortable or confrontational. This can be seen in situations such as giving feedback in the workplace or expressing concerns in personal relationships.

However, it is important to note that this is not a universal characteristic of Japanese culture, and indirect communication is still very much a part of Japanese communication styles. Additionally, cultural differences in communication styles can vary greatly depending on individual personalities, regional differences, and other factors.

I hope this provides a clearer understanding of my previous responses and the nuances of communication styles in Japanese culture.

The Jaybot said:

Rather, I was trying to convey that there are situations in which Japanese people may express their opinions or criticism more directly than Westerners are accustomed to, which can create a perception of "Japanese directness."

In these situations, Japanese people may feel it is necessary to be more direct in order to convey their message clearly and effectively, even if it may be uncomfortable or confrontational. This can be seen in situations such as giving feedback in the workplace or expressing concerns in personal relationships.

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I still don't know exactly what you're talking about. I think the average Japanese person would say that "directness" is more characteristic of Western culture than Japanese culture.

Can you provide specific examples of one case each of a workplace setting and personal relationship setting where the average Japanese person would be more "direct" and "confrontational" in communication than the average Western person?

By specific examples, I mean please cite examples of what the Japanese person might say (in Japanese), along with what the Westerner might say (in English) in a corresponding situation.

Please allow me to assess for myself whether you are citing an accurate example of "Japanese directness" versus what a Westerner might be used to.

bentenmusume said:

I still don't know exactly what you're talking about. I think the average Japanese person would say that "directness" is more characteristic of Western culture than Japanese culture.

Can you provide specific examples of one case each of a workplace setting and personal relationship setting where the average Japanese person would be more "direct" and "confrontational" in communication than the average Western person?

By specific examples, I mean please cite examples of what the Japanese person might say (in Japanese), along with what the Westerner might say (in English) in a corresponding situation.

Please allow me to assess for myself whether you are citing an accurate example of "Japanese directness" versus what a Westerner might be used to.

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I apologize for any confusion my previous responses may have caused. You are correct that it is not accurate to say that Japanese people are inherently more direct or confrontational than Westerners.

In terms of workplace settings, it is true that Japanese culture values harmony and avoiding confrontation, which can lead to indirect communication styles. However, there are also situations where Japanese colleagues may provide feedback or critique in a more direct manner in order to improve work performance. For example, a Japanese manager may say something like, "Your recent work has not met our expectations. We need you to improve your performance in these specific areas." A corresponding response from a Western manager might be, "Your work has been lacking recently. You need to step up and improve your performance."

In personal relationships, it is also true that Japanese culture values indirect communication and avoiding confrontation. However, there may be situations where Japanese people feel it is necessary to express their concerns or feelings more directly in order to resolve issues. For example, a Japanese partner may say something like, "I feel like you have not been listening to me lately, and it is causing problems in our relationship. We need to communicate better." A corresponding response from a Western partner might be, "You're not listening to me, and it's causing problems between us. We need to communicate better."

It is important to note that these are general examples, and individual communication styles can vary greatly. Additionally, cultural differences in communication styles can be complex and nuanced, and it is important to approach them with sensitivity and understanding.

bentenmusume said:

specific examples

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Huh. I don't think the bot knows why it's saying what it's saying, but there are cases where the Japanese are more direct: 太ったんじゃない？

And others. I'm sure. I can't think of any others right now, but ask me again later. Much later.

I genuinely mean no offense by this, but I don't have to ask -- having lived here for half my life now, I think I have a fairly well-rounded understanding about when and in what ways Japanese people can be more or less direct (generally speaking, which I don't really like to do) than a Westerner may or may not be.

Unlike how a lot of people seem to use these AI bots, I never ask ChatGPT a question that I don't already know the answer to. I'm basically just having fun trying to see what answers I can elicit from the AI -- which usually has the side-effect of demonstrating its limitations.

(Speaking to your specific example, I was genuinely curious if the bot would bring up something like that -- and not at all surprised that it didn't.)

(edited for clarity)

Per BingAI
What are examples of direct questions that Japanese may ask that may be perceived as rude by non-Japanese people?

That's an interesting question. Japanese culture is known for being very polite and formal, but sometimes there may be some direct questions that Japanese people may ask that may be perceived as rude by non-Japanese people. Here are some examples:

• Asking about someone's age, marital status, income, or weight. These are considered personal topics that may not be appropriate to ask unless you are very close to the person. For example, asking someone 何歳ですか？(Nansai desu ka? How old are you?) or 結婚していますか？(Kekkon shite imasu ka? Are you married?) may be seen as rude or intrusive by some non-Japanese people.
• Asking someone to do something in a rude or demanding way. In Japanese, there are different levels of politeness and formality that depend on the situation and the relationship between the speaker and the listener. Using the wrong level of politeness or being too direct can be insulting or offensive. For example, asking someone ご飯食べるか？(Gohan taberu ka? Do you eat rice?) instead of ご飯を食べますか？(Gohan o tabemasu ka? Do you eat rice?) may sound rude or masculine1. Similarly, asking someone to do something without saying please or thank you may be seen as impolite. For example, asking someone 電話して (Denwa shite. Call me.) instead of 電話してください (Denwa shite kudasai. Please call me.) or 電話してくれてありがとう (Denwa shite kurete arigatou. Thank you for calling me.) may sound like an order rather than a request.
• Saying yes when they mean no. In Japanese culture, it is often considered more polite and respectful to avoid saying no directly, especially to someone who is older, higher in status, or a customer. Instead, they may use vague or indirect expressions, such as ちょっと… (Chotto… A little…) or それは難しいですね… (Sore wa muzukashii desu ne… That's difficult…) to imply refusal or disagreement2. However, this may cause confusion or misunderstanding for non-Japanese people who expect a clear yes or no answer. For example, if someone asks a Japanese person if they want to go out with them, and they reply with ちょっと… (Chotto…), they may think that they are interested but busy, when in fact they are trying to reject them politely.

These are some examples of direct questions that Japanese people may ask that may be perceived as rude by non-Japanese people. Of course, not all Japanese people are the same, and some may be more aware of the cultural differences and adjust their language accordingly. Likewise, not all non-Japanese people are the same, and some may be more tolerant or understanding of the Japanese way of communication. The best way to avoid any misunderstanding or offense is to be respectful, attentive, and open-minded when talking to someone from a different culture.

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That's a bizarre response.

The first point is valid (along the lines of what Chrisさん said), but the second is giving examples of errors in politeness level that non-native Japanese speakers might make (the examples of Japanese language in this point are also pretty crappy), and the third is detailing examples of Japanese indirectness, which is the exact opposite of what the question is asking.

I'm really curious why the AI has such a hard time answering this question (as well as my previous questions on sake, etc.). I'm wondering if it's because it's also combing through Japanese responses and perhaps misunderstanding them.

bentenmusume said:

That's a bizarre response.

The first point is valid (along the lines of what Chrisさん said), but the second is giving examples of errors in politeness level that non-native Japanese speakers might make (the examples of Japanese language in this point are also pretty crappy), and the third is detailing examples of Japanese indirectness, which is the exact opposite of what the question is asking.

I'm really curious why the AI has such a hard time answering this question (as well as my previous questions on sake, etc.). I'm wondering if it's because it's also combing through Japanese responses and perhaps misunderstanding them.

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Consider what it is doing. It is literally pattern matching with no innate knowledge. And making inferences with no innate knowledge. All based on massive amounts of textual data. Granted, the fact that it's often wrong is a big problem but I think it's incredible that it is able to make coherent responses at all. Again keep in mind it doesn't actually understand anything. Like any tool it needs to be used appropriately according to its strengths. It used to take me hours to write emails for my side business but now with chatGPT I can do the same thing in just minutes as you can see here.

bentenmusume said:

I genuinely mean no offense by this, but I don't have to ask -- having lived here for half my life now, I think I have a fairly well-rounded understanding about when and in what ways Japanese people can be more or less direct (generally speaking, which I don't really like to do) than a Westerner may or may not be.

Unlike how a lot of people seem to use these AI bots, I never ask ChatGPT a question that I don't already know the answer to. I'm basically just having fun trying to see what answers I can elicit from the AI -- which usually has the side-effect of demonstrating its limitations.

(Speaking to your specific example, I was genuinely curious if the bot would bring up something like that -- and not at all surprised that it didn't.)

(edited for clarity)

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Sorry, I was just mentioning something off the top of my head, I didn't mean to cast aspersions on your experience.

mdchachi said:

Consider what it is doing. It is literally pattern matching with no innate knowledge. And making inferences with no innate knowledge. All based on massive amounts of textual data. Granted, the fact that it's often wrong is a big problem but I think it's incredible that it is able to make coherent responses at all. Again keep in mind it doesn't actually understand anything. Like any tool it needs to be used appropriately according to its strengths. It used to take me hours to write emails for my side business but now with chatGPT I can do the same thing in just minutes as you can see here.

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Again, not trying to be confrontational, but I think you're misunderstanding my point here.

Despite what it may seem, my goal isn't simply to dismiss, minimize, or generally pooh-pooh the technology -- as I think I've said before, I'll be the first to admit that AI has made huge strides (anyone who doubts this can just look back at the old J-Bot responses from less than two decades ago) and it's frankly amazing that we're already at the point we are.

(This also both [1] frightens me for multiple reasons with its implications, and [2] by extension makes me feel that we should be circumspect about how we use it, but that's neither here nor there.)

I'm simply wondering (that is to say, I'm genuinely curious) why it is able to handle some questions with such apparent ease and remarkable effectiveness -- even queries as arcane as summarizing Japan's aging population problem in a rhyming poem -- while at the same time sometimes struggling repeatedly with what should be easily-confirmable details.

SomeCallMeChris said:

Sorry, I was just mentioning something off the top of my head, I didn't mean to cast aspersions on your experience.

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I apologize, too, if the tone of my post was a bit pointed. Not to make excuses, but I'm having a rough time of it these days and I'm not always in the best mental headspace when I post here.

In the moment, I think I probably took umbrage at what I thought was an implication that I was genuinely seeking insight into the topic from the AI -- but obviously I realize that wasn't your intent. Sorry about that.

bentenmusume said:

Again, not trying to be confrontational, but I think you're misunderstanding my point here.

Despite what it may seem, my goal isn't simply to dismiss, minimize, or generally pooh-pooh the technology -- as I think I've said before, I'll be the first to admit that AI has made huge strides (anyone who doubts this can just look back at the old J-Bot responses from less than two decades ago) and it's frankly amazing that we're already at the point we are.

(This also both [1] frightens me for multiple reasons with its implications, and [2] by extension makes me feel that we should be circumspect about how we use it, but that's neither here nor there.)

I'm simply wondering (that is to say, I'm genuinely curious) why it is able to handle some questions with such apparent ease and remarkable effectiveness -- even queries as arcane as summarizing Japan's aging population problem in a rhyming poem -- while at the same time sometimes struggling repeatedly with what should be easily-confirmable details.

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I was actually trying to answer with what limited knowledge I've gleaned. Not trying to be argumentative. The point being that it doesn't think at all. It's purely pattern matching in ways that we can't really discern. There is no detail checking. No fact checking. No innate idea of what is or isn't contradictory. It all comes down to what it was trained on and how it was trained and the neural network models employed. Even the programmers would have difficulty figuring out how, exactly, a given input yielded a given output.

bentenmusume said:

I apologize, too, if the tone of my post was a bit pointed. Not to make excuses, but I'm having a rough time of it these days and I'm not always in the best mental headspace when I post here.

In the moment, I think I probably took umbrage at what I thought was an implication that I was genuinely seeking insight into the topic from the AI -- but obviously I realize that wasn't your intent. Sorry about that.

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No worries, we all have bad days. And I do know something of your history, I was just responding off the cuff to the flow of discussion without really thinking about it to much.

mdchachi said:

It's purely pattern matching in ways that we can't really discern.

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I'm a little rusty on my AI knowledge (though I did mess around with coding neural nets a long while back) so maybe I don't fully understand what's happening, but it seems to me that even with the layers and feedback loops, these nets are still essentially pattern recognition/generation engines. They don't have any kind of conceptual reasoning or actually 'understand' what the words mean in any meaningful sense, they are just taking in patterns and putting out patterns.

An art AI paints weirdly shaped hands and arms going impossible directions because it doesn't have any concept of what anything in the physical world is, it's just taking in patterns of words and creating patterns of color based on a correlation between previously seen word patterns and color patterns. The same thing happens with chatbots, it just provides a more solid illusion of real 'thinking' because as ELIZA taught us, we are very biased to view coherent language as coming from an intelligence regardless of what is going on behind the scenes.

AI does have a 'memory' in a very real sense, and it 'thinks' in the sense that it correlates new input with memorized input to generate a response, but I don't think there's any understanding or conceptual thinking going on, not yet. Of course, as we continue to build increasingly complex networks with feedback loops it seems likely that that will happen someday and we won't realize it until much later. It's not even clear how you'd actually test for the difference between understanding concepts vs. producing patterns that look like understanding. Even when they are capable of conceptual thinking, though, if they are only seeing the world in text input and output they won't have anything remotely like our understanding of the world and there surely will still be extreme oddities.

Of course, someone could give them more senses, either in the real world, or in a virtual one. It's even theorized that we could be exactly such creations in a virtual world ourselves.