Is this freedom of speech ?

Hmmm, if you're in one of those countries that ban "hate speech," I can understand why you'd think burning the Koran should be banned.

Why wouldn't burning the Koran be "hate speech"? Isn't it a symbolic expression of hate? Free expression isn't limited to literal speech; it includes written words, pictures, photos, drawings, ceremonies, and so on.
 
Decides to add fuel to the fire, burning a book is not freedom of speech, it is freedom of choice. There was a lot of book burning after 1933 in Germany. And yet again, Religion, causes yet more conflict around the world, alas.
 
Don't know about elsewhere, but I think US courts would say that burning a book as part of a protest or gathering is protected free speech here. The courts have already said that about the US flag.
 
Hezam,
I believe that in every country the unknown is feared. The Islam is quite new in America, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and Europe. Today we talk about Muslims and Christians over here in Europe.
But it is not so long ago that we were talking about Roman Catholics and Protestants, today they are just called Christians. At the moment quite some young Dutch are visiting the mosque since they are looking for more puritanism in their lifes. Holland is a very free country, for some too free.
Not now of course, but later on Muslims and Christians together will be called Believers.
Maybe we are already closer than we think and then it is only culture that is seperating us?
 
RolandtheHeadless said:
Hmmm, if you're in one of those countries that ban "hate speech," I can understand why you'd think burning the Koran should be banned.

Why wouldn't burning the Koran be "hate speech"? Isn't it a symbolic expression of hate? Free expression isn't limited to literal speech; it includes written words, pictures, photos, drawings, ceremonies, and so on.
Click to expand...

It depends on the intention behind the action and on the reaction of those that the action could be seen to harm. It's pretty hard to imagine a situation in which burning the Qur'an doesn't constitute an expression of hatred towards Islam or one in which Muslims would fail to feel insulted and threatened. So for that reason, you probably would be arrested here for burning the Qur'an or other holy book.

The law is pretty ambiguous and the police often don't know how to interpret it. A couple of years ago, kids protesting against Scientology were asked to remove signs calling it a cult and a boy in Edinburgh was arrested. However, the CPS threw out the case on the grounds that the statement was intended not as an insult but as criticism. The CPS are very good; when requested they sent a letter to protesters in Birmingham stating that it was permissible to call Scientology a cult, which they could then show to any police who asked them to remove such signs.

I think the ambiguity of the law is a good thing; it allows the CPS to review actions on a case by case basis.

UK Hate Speech Law
Scientology is a cult
 
"I think the ambiguity of the law is a good thing; it allows the CPS to review actions on a case by case basis."

From my perspective as an American, ambiguity in law is a bad thing.

1. An ambiguous law fails to inform people what is and is not allowed, before they commit an alleged crime.

2. An ambiguous law may be interpreted differently for differently people, depending on their family, friendship, political or other affiliations. A system where officials may punish their enemies and help their friends doesn't promote respect for law or government.

If you say application of hate-speech law should depend on the intent of the accused or the reaction of others, you've set an entirely subjective standard for enforcing the law. In general, I have problems with thought crimes. Government shouldn't be trying to control people's thoughts, but only their actions.

As example, the first five of the Ten Commandments establish thought crimes. "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife or property" is a prohibition against certain thoughts.

"You shall not steal" is a prohibition on behavior, not thoughts; and that's what criminal law should focus on.
 
RolandtheHeadless said:
From my perspective as an American, ambiguity in law is a bad thing.

1. An ambiguous law fails to inform people what is and is not allowed, before they commit an alleged crime.
Click to expand...

True, in that people won't know what specific statements are and aren't allowed until someone gets away with or gets prosecuted for that particular statement. But people know that making controversial statements might get them arrested, so they know they are taking a risk. I think the ambiguity of the law allows it to evolve, to adapt to situations no-one thought of. Once the CPS has made a decision on a particular issue, or it has been successfully or unsuccessfully prosecuted, the ambiguity is more-or-less gone for that issue; for example, protesters now know that they can call Scientology a cult.

RolandtheHeadless said:
2. An ambiguous law may be interpreted differently for differently people, depending on their family, friendship, political or other affiliations. A system where officials may punish their enemies and help their friends doesn't promote respect for law or government.
Click to expand...

It's not ambiguous in that sense; when I said case by case, I meant for each new statement that's not been addressed before. Once a particular statement has already been addressed by the law, it's probably going to be treated in the same way the next time around; a precendence is then set that should do away with the ambiguity. If not, there's grounds for appeal.

I don't think it's possible for such a law to be unambiguous, since it's impossible to list all the statements that are not permissible.

RolandtheHeadless said:
If you say application of hate-speech law should depend on the intent of the accused or the reaction of others, you've set an entirely subjective standard for enforcing the law. In general, I have problems with thought crimes. Government shouldn't be trying to control people's thoughts, but only their actions.
Click to expand...

No-one's saying you're not allowed to think or believe certain things, but just that certain actions inspired by those thoughts are illegal. It was recently ruled that a teacher can be a member of the BNP; they are allowed to believe in fascist policies. But to put those policies into practice in the classroom is illegal. It's the actions that are punished, but the intentions behind those actions have to be considered.

How do we decide if someone has committed murder? One of the considerations is the intention of the killer. If we convicted people of murder solely on the basis that they killed another human being we'd be convicting people I'm sure you'd agree aren't really guilty of murder.

RolandtheHeadless said:
As example, the first five of the Ten Commandments establish thought crimes. "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife or property" is a prohibition against certain thoughts.

"You shall not steal" is a prohibition on behavior, not thoughts; and that's what criminal law should focus on.
Click to expand...

LOL, no-one's going to get convicted for fancying his neighbours wife. But if he acts on that desire in a way that makes life uncomfortable for his neighbours, chances are they'll get a restraining order; quite rightly, in my opinion.
 
I think burning the Quran is okay, but I do not think the organization doing it should be able to operate. However, due to the United States of America granting free speech to it's people, the fact of the matter is that they are allowed to do so.

Think of it this way, Hezam. I could burn an American flag right now if I wanted to. I could burn a bible if I wanted to. I could burn a Quran if I wanted to. I could burn the Karma Sutra if I wanted to. The freedom of speech grants not only the right to take such actions, but also the right of people against what I'm doing to protest my actions, provided those protests do not lead to violence.
 
Sorry Thor but there is no comparable between Holy Books and flags.
You know that exactly but you want to sound like philosopher..
I advise you to get a copy of Quran and read it,Take it like a magazine or Story books and read it,If you don't like what in it then return it from where you take it from,No need to burn anything.
People should stop the stupid acts whatever they call it,freedom of speech,freedom of idiocy...ect
 
Hezam said:
Sorry Thor but there is no comparable between Holy Books and flags.
You know that exactly but you want to sound like philosopher..
I advise you to get a copy of Quran and read it,Take it like a magazine or Story books and read it,If you don't like what in it then return it from where you take it from,No need to burn anything.
People should stop the stupid acts whatever they call it,freedom of speech,freedom of idiocy...ect
Click to expand...

I am not trying to sound like a philosopher. That's just crazy talk! At any rate, there is a Quran on the bookshelf behind me, right next to the Torah, Bible, and Anne Rice's Interview with a Vampire. It is my firm belief that the only thing these books have in common are reoccurring characters, and their almost certain fictional status.

I'll burn my property if I want to, it won't have anything to do with anyone but me. I won't have someone tell me what to do, don't tempt me. At any rate, flags and books like the Quran have one thing in common: people believe in them. So burning either a flag or a book would indicate two things. The first being that something is on fire, oh noes! The second is that someone somewhere is probably unhappy with your decision to destroy something they love.
 
I wonder how much you love your country !
A person who loves his country wouldn't do such stupid things that offend the others just because he doesn't like it ! What that kind of persons would make good things,join the others and make a good picture of his country.
Thats the proud person.
Could you understand ? or is it not logical for you ?

See this man on Youtube,He is one of the proud American people,I hope everyone would see his videos and the comments of the Muslims/Christians/Jews/Athiests on every video he recorded.

http://www.youtube.com/user/clevonamerica
 
Hezam said:
I wonder how much you love your country !
A person who loves his country wouldn't do such stupid things that offend the others just because he doesn't like it ! What that kind of persons would make good things,join the others and make a good picture of his country.
Thats the proud person.
Could you understand ? or is it not logical for you ?
Click to expand...

Hey, I'm not a supporter of the organization planning to burn the aforementioned book. The fact of the matter is that not many people are fans of it either. This is a matter of gray, which I'm not a fan of, and something you clearly don't understand. I wish it were a matter of black and white, but it's not.
 
Thor said:
Hey, I'm not a supporter of the organization planning to burn the aforementioned book. The fact of the matter is that not many people are fans of it either. This is a matter of gray, which I'm not a fan of, and something you clearly don't understand. I wish it were a matter of black and white, but it's not.
Click to expand...
That was not for you,it's for all people around the world.That's what they some people don't understand.
 
Hezam said:
Sorry Thor but there is no comparable between Holy Books and flags.
You know that exactly but you want to sound like philosopher..
I advise you to get a copy of Quran and read it,Take it like a magazine or Story books and read it,If you don't like what in it then return it from where you take it from,No need to burn anything.
People should stop the stupid acts whatever they call it,freedom of speech,freedom of idiocy...ect
Click to expand...

You are being unreasonable. It had been pointed out to you time and time again that scripture and flags can easily be compared. It is only you who regards the Quran as a holy book the same way that the Bible is a holy book only to Christians and a select few other nutters. I couldn't give a toss about either. They're nothing more than books to me, only sophisticated arrangements of matter with nothing sacral attached, but they are capable of being perceived as very important. The same is true of anything, any object and if you think otherwise, you are simply being blinded by religious fervour and cannot employ detached and abstract thinking, which, again, you demonstrated a number of times with your stubborn and relentless repetition of fallacious comments, and more precisely comments which are bereft altogether of an understanding of the principle of freedom of speech.

I'll tell you what, if you're fed up with freedom of speech, I suggest you lead by example and stop speaking out against our governments, who allow people to enjoy such a right as freedom of speech. And I would also extend it to your own government. Because servers such as that used by Jref are established in countries where freedom of speech does, in fact, exist, you have been able, on several occasions, to criticise your own government. If freedom of speech is such a sinister right, refrain from using it and limit your communications to what has been authorised in your own jurisdiction, which is precisely **** all.
 
Derfel said:
I'll tell you what, if you're fed up with freedom of speech, I suggest you lead by example and stop speaking out against our governments, who allow people to enjoy such a right as freedom of speech. And I would also extend it to your own government. Because servers such as that used by Jref are established in countries where freedom of speech does, in fact, exist, you have been able, on several occasions, to criticise your own government. If freedom of speech is such a sinister right, refrain from using it and limit your communications to what has been authorised in your own jurisdiction, which is precisely **** all.
Click to expand...

^ He's kind of got you by the balls there Hezam :P Fight! *tosses in gold coins into the ring and sits back to watch the bloody bath*
 
Hezam said:
I wonder how much you love your country !
A person who loves his country wouldn't do such stupid things that offend the others just because he doesn't like it ! What that kind of persons would make good things,join the others and make a good picture of his country.
Click to expand...


Again, you're missing the point of what free speech *is*.

It's the right to say or do things that make a statement. It has nothing to do with whether anyone is offended by the statement -- you have no right NOT to be offended.

The freedom extends, basically, to any socio-political commentary -- or it wouldn't really be freedom. It doesn't matter whether the commentary is vocal (saying "XYZ sucks!") or active (burning a flag or a book *does* make a statement). It doesn't even matter if the speech is brilliant, stupid, obnoxious, witty, deep, or vacuous. That's what the freedom is all about.
 
"But people know that making controversial statements might get them arrested, so they know they are taking a risk."

And that risk suppresses free speech. Getting arrested, going through trial, is a risk to your freedom and finances. So you say, "Maybe I'd better delete this or tone it down." Government censors don't need to do the work because you'll do it for them.

As I remember it, some people here first started burning US flags back in the 1960s, to protest our government's actions in Vietnam. They saw flag-burning as a protest of our government, not our nation or people.

But a majority of folks were outraged because the flag is a quasi-religious symbol to them. Congress passed a law against flag-burning; the courts struck the law down on free-speech grounds.

The people now burning the Koran are using a similar rationale. They're showing their hatred and disdain for Islam. Islam itself is evil, in their minds, and they're trying to get attention with this silly stunt.

Hezam, it's hard for some of us to feel your outrage because we get overloaded with all sorts of drivel and silly demonstrations. Part of the price to pay for free speech. You can still outrage a good number of people here by burning our flag, though; and I suspect that's why people in the Middle East burn our flag too.
 
Emoni said:
^ He's kind of got you by the balls there Hezam :P Fight! *tosses in gold coins into the ring and sits back to watch the bloody bath*
Click to expand...

Haha, I am ready to deliver the coup de grace. Anyhow, nice to see you're back. How did you find the Old World?
 
Depressing as hell so far. Finally finished off the last of the depressing sites with Auschwitz today. I'll still be popping in sporadically just because I'm bogged down with so much research. As long as there exists freedom of speech here that is ;)
 
Emoni said:
Depressing as hell so far. Finally finished off the last of the depressing sites with Auschwitz today. I'll still be popping in sporadically just because I'm bogged down with so much research. As long as there exists freedom of speech here that is ;)
Click to expand...

Strength through unity, unity through faith!
 
Maybe the title should be "Is this type of speech allowed?"
As everyone said,It's freedom of speech,I was thinking deeply in your comments and i find it a freedom of speech,But the question should be "Is this type of speech allowed" (another perfect title from native English would be better).

I also edited the Tags from ( bible, christianity, islam, quran ) witch has nothing to do with the title to (freedom of speech, freedom., haterd speech ).

Emoni,Ouuuuuuuutch << is that what you want <_<
 
Hezam said:
Maybe the title should be "Is this type of speech allowed?"
As everyone said,It's freedom of speech,I was thinking deeply in your comments and i find it a freedom of speech,But the question should be "Is this type of speech allowed" (another perfect title from native English would be better).
I also edited the Tags from ( bible, christianity, islam, quran ) witch has nothing to do with the title to (freedom of speech, freedom., haterd speech ).
Emoni,Ouuuuuuuutch << is that what you want <_<
Click to expand...

Look, you're enjoying freedom of speech and expression right now, so why are you complaining when it's not something you like? Everyone is calling you out on that, so please either abide by your country's law on speech/expression, or give up trying to tell us it's horrible and hurts peoples feelings.
 
Emoni said:
Depressing as hell so far. Finally finished off the last of the depressing sites with Auschwitz today.
Click to expand...

Hmm, what a cheerful field to choose haha. You must endure for the greater good... of academia. :D

Thor said:
Look, you're enjoying freedom of speech and expression right now, so why are you complaining when it's not something you like? Everyone is calling you out on that, so please either abide by your country's law on speech/expression, or give up trying to tell us it's horrible and hurts peoples feelings.
Click to expand...

Oh he does this every now and then. Present him with an insurmountable argument and he'll ignore you, then when pressed create a comment with things of little or no relevance and if you're lucky, you will eventually get a dramatic appeal to morality. This sh*t's been going on for a while.
 

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