Is 'masu/desu-style' used with kids?

[Glenn]

With polite Japanese being much more structured than English I'm sure that there is a lot of formal learning. In fact, I've spoken to Japanese people who say they remember learning the keigo rules at school.

Funny. I was just told the exact opposite this morning by one of my teachers. She said that they only learn keigo when they start working for a company.

 

[nhk9]

From what I have heard, in high school they are taught the fundamentals, but they have hardly any chances to use them. That's why by the time they get to society, they have forgotten much of what they learned and have to re-learn again.

 

[Elizabeth]

From what I have heard, in high school they are taught the fundamentals, but they have hardly any chances to use them. That's why by the time they get to society, they have forgotten much of what they learned and have to re-learn again.

That is my general understanding as well. Some friends in the US say they would have to be re-learned after being out of the work force a few years.

 

[Seito]

I mean there seems to be an underlying supposition that Japanese kids learn Japanese in a manner similar to the way we foreigners learn it: that they have to be sat down and taught desu/masu.

If that was suggested it sure wasn't by me. My question wasn't even about whether or how Japanese kids learn polite style; of course they will pick it up sooner or later through constant exposure, it's their mother tongue. My question was whether kids themselves are sometimes spoken to in polite style. (I hope I can now stop explaining what my question was )
Bucko said (sorry, multi-quotes didn't seem to work):

For 'nani wo shite imasu ka' (what are you doing), the kids instead say 'nani shite', without the 'imasu' or 'iru' or 'wo' particle.

OK, now I see, thanks. Japanese grammar is pretty complex, I'm not surprised they simplify it a little in quick everyday speech.

The kids I teach are from 2 years old to 12. Another interesting thing, I'm sure I heard this little 2 1/2 year old girl refer to herself as 'boku' the other day.

Hehe, funny I suppose she hears her father say it all the time. (Boku used to be considered a male thing, but more and more women are using it nowadays, I believe?)

For example, from a "Connect the dots" exercise for children..
Quote:
The example below is from a book for 3-year olds called O-ekaki Okeiko, (おえかき、おけいこ) "Drawing Practice"---- The "polite" prefix o-gets heavy use in language directed at children.
"てんてんをせんでつなぎましょう"
tenten o sen de tsunagimashou
"Let's connect the dots."

Interesting and funny to see that such polite language is used speaking to 3-year-olds... though they can't read it themselves of course, and when their mother explains in her own words, it will be in plain style.

 

[Mike Cash]

If that was suggested it sure wasn't by me. My question wasn't even about whether or how Japanese kids learn polite style; of course they will pick it up sooner or later through constant exposure, it's their mother tongue. My question was whether kids themselves are sometimes spoken to in polite style. (I hope I can now stop explaining what my question was )

Oh, I understood the point of your question well enough. It was the answers from others that I found bizarre.

 

[louissandra]

i think ~masu/~desu is used when you were talking to someone superior to you.like for example,when you are talking to your sensei you will use ~masu but when you were talking to shachou, you wil used honorofic verbs like irrashaimasu instead of ikimasu.that's what our nihongo sensei have taught us..

 

[Elizabeth]

i think ~masu/~desu is used when you were talking to someone superior to you.like for example,when you are talking to your sensei you will use ~masu but when you were talking to shachou, you wil used honorofic verbs like irrashaimasu instead of ikimasu.that's what our nihongo sensei have taught us..

I think you need to pretty much always use keigo in talking with a superior in a work situation, and even outside the office.

 

[Elizabeth]

Hehe, funny I suppose she hears her father say it all the time. (Boku used to be considered a male thing, but more and more women are using it nowadays, I believe?)

A lot of girls go through stages of joking around with boku and if not told to quit, in the strongest terms unfortunately some will continue as adults. Or maybe she's only a budding j-pop star.

Interesting and funny to see that such polite language is used speaking to 3-year-olds... though they can't read it themselves of course, and when their mother explains in her own words, it will be in plain style.

I don't think it's strange at all. It's just the difference between written and everyday spoken speech, although the "mashou" form you can get by with even in plain speech for a softer approach. And women tend to use a more rounded, gentler style of language more than men anyway.

 

[Seito]

A lot of girls go through stages of joking around with boku and if not told to quit, in the strongest terms unfortunately some will continue as adults.

You say 'unfortunately'; I know boku is casual language, not polite, but do you think it sounds rude to use 'boku'? And if so, do you also think so when it's a boy or a man who uses it? Just trying to understand...

 

[J44xm]

Just for the record, I recently asked about using "boku" in a classroom environment as well. That might help.

 

[Elizabeth]

You say 'unfortunately'; I know boku is casual language, not polite, but do you think it sounds rude to use 'boku'? And if so, do you also think so when it's a boy or a man who uses it? Just trying to understand...

No, that's quite normal. The vast majority of men and boys do. I was speaking strictly of women and especially adults.

It's a gender/age thing in the same way that it becomes attaching "chan" to a the last name of a kopai ("underling" or subordinate) in the workplace. Fine for male superiors to male subordinates ; women to men where there isn't that much of an age difference ; a lot of women may not like it from male bosses while women to women sometimes use it on each other.

As complicated and interesting as always...

 

[The7thSamurai]

I never hear males using 'watashi', even when speaking formally. 'Boku' seems to be the all round most commonly used. I've noticed that men use 'boku' when talking about themselves to women, and 'ore' when talking with other guys.

 

[pipokun]

I never hear males using 'watashi', even when speaking formally. 'Boku' seems to be the all round most commonly used. I've noticed that men use 'boku' when talking about themselves to women, and 'ore' when talking with other guys.

Probably you meet only students and friends.

 

[Seito]

No, that's quite normal. The vast majority of men and boys do. I was speaking strictly of women and especially adults.
It's a gender/age thing in the same way that it becomes attaching "chan" to a the last name of a kopai ("underling" or subordinate) in the workplace. Fine for male superiors to male subordinates ; women to men where there isn't that much of an age difference ; a lot of women may not like it from male bosses while women to women sometimes use it on each other.
As complicated and interesting as always...

So no 'boku' for women and girls. What it comes down to, is that women and girls have to speak more politely than men and boys...

I thought "chan" was for kids and young girls. Apparently that should be 'younger persons'.

And thanks for the link, J44xm, interesting. Boy, it's complicated!

(We're digressing a little; if anyone has some more examples of styles of speaking to children: very welcome!)

 

[Elizabeth]

Probably you meet only students and friends.

Yeah, you can even hear men use "watakushi" if you know where to listen. I hear it on news interviews all the time.

 

[The7thSamurai]

Probably you meet only students and friends.

You're probably right

 

[Mike Cash]

kopai ("underling" or subordinate)

Not to nitpick, but....後輩 (kouhai). The "p" in "senpai" derives from the "h" in "hai" following the "n" in "sen" (which changes to "m" because it comes before the "p" in "pai" which is really "hai" but has to change because of the "n" in "sen" which.....continue around the loop as many times as you wish...

 

[Elizabeth]

So no 'boku' for women and girls. What it comes down to, is that women and girls have to speak more politely than men and boys...
I thought "chan" was for kids and young girls. Apparently that should be 'younger persons'.

I don't think it's very professional and I know a lot of women don't appreciate the undesired sense of closeness it suggests...women should be 'san' regardless of their ranking...if only I had the power of enforcement.

 

[Elizabeth]

Not to nitpick, but....後輩 (kouhai). The "p" in "senpai" derives from the "h" in "hai" following the "n" in "sen" (which changes to "m" because it comes before the "p" in "pai" which is really "hai" but has to change because of the "n" in "sen" which.....continue around the loop as many times as you wish...

Oh, yes, that was really stupid from writing too fast at work and it is actually "hai." Can we use real Japanese now, for the OP, or do we need to continue this romaji ?

 

[Seito]

Oh, yes, that was really stupid from writing too fast at work and it is actually "hai." Can we use real Japanese now, for the OP, or do we need to continue this romaji ?

Still romaji, please... I'd prefer real Japanese too, but I get nothing but question marks. I'll try and fix my computer problems, but it may take a while.

 

[yukio_michael]

Not to nitpick, but....ﾅ津｣窶掣 (kouhai). The "p" in "senpai" derives from the "h" in "hai" following the "n" in "sen" (which changes to "m" because it comes before the "p" in "pai" which is really "hai" but has to change because of the "n" in "sen" which.....continue around the loop as many times as you wish...

What should I look for if I wanted to research how and why certain sounds change in Japanese when they follow another sound... what should I search for?

I'm studying vocabulary, and it would help me if I knew that the reading a certain character might have changes because of the character it follows.

I'm lacking the terminology I think to do a propper google search...

Thanks.

 

[Seito]

What should I look for if I wanted to research how and why certain sounds change in Japanese when they follow another sound... what should I search for?
I'm studying vocabulary, and it would help me if I knew that the reading a certain character might have changes because of the character it follows.
I'm lacking the terminology I think to do a propper google search...
Thanks.

Some words you may find useful: rendaku specifically for Japanese (see 'Japanese' under the Wikipedia entry 'consonant mutation', see link) or more in general 'sandhi' (Sanskrit term indicating the phenomenon that sounds change due to the proximity of other sounds). Hope this helps.

 

[Glenn]

Also I believe 音便 (onbin) or "euphonic change" would do the trick.