Is 'masu/desu-style' used with kids?

[Seito]

Hi!

I've only studied a little Japanese by myself, from books, and I only hear it in films, so I have no opportunity to practice.

Polite speech (I'll call it the 'masu/desu-style') is used when speaking to people you don't know very well. Does that also apply to kids, or would it be too polite for them? And is there a difference between speaking to an unknown kid in the street or to a kid of an acquaintance? In the second case you would use polite speech when talking about the child (o-ko-san instead of kodomo), but would you use polite speech to the child?

From what age (of your speaking partner, I mean) would you start using the masu/desu-style?

Thanks!

 

[yukio_michael]

Children are taught more polite styles, and I don't recall the children I was around being spoken to in a specifically plain form... Think of the forms as plain/polite/ & honorific...

That said, adults and friends use a very casual plain form around each other, so you might say, ikou? instead of ikimashou? to ask if another is ready to go or not...

Around adults whom you are only casually familar with, desu & masu, & imasu, are appropriate verb forms. Desu is simply naturually polite--- and its usage shouldn't get you into trouble either sounding too formal or not formal enough.

 

[Damicci]

Really depends on the situation.

It think normally if the child is a student polite 丁寧語 teineigo is used.
If the child is a soon or daughter then casual speech is used. (I have only understood this from friends, I use casual and command forms with my son)
Child on the street is probably subject to why your speaking to this child. Normally I would expect polite speech is used.

Edit Yukio said it best.

 

[Elizabeth]

Kids are taught the desu/masu style beginning with their textbooks from an early age but I don't think most can actually grasp the appropriate usage and do it themselves for a few more years (10 or 11?). So it depends both on the ages involved (of the speaker as well), the reason etc.

Okosan is used for talking about someone else's kid.

 

[Seito]

Thanks for your replies, but I feel that most of it was a bit beside the point... My question was not when to use the masu/desu style among adults, nor whether children are taught this style, but whether adults use it when speaking to children - children who are not your own, for of course you would use the plain style with your own kids.
Damicci said

It think normally if the child is a student polite 丁寧語 teineigo is used.

You mean if you are the child's teacher? Yes, that would make sense.
But if you went to visit some acquaintance in their home, and they have kids, you would speak to them using 'masu' and 'desu'? Does it make a difference whether the child is 1, 2, 6 or 10 years old? (Maybe a 2-year-old wouldn't even understand these masu/desu-forms, as they are used to their parents speaking plain style to them?)

 

[Elizabeth]

Thanks for your replies, but I feel that most of it was a bit beside the point... My question was not when to use the masu/desu style among adults, nor whether children are taught this style, but whether adults use it when speaking to children - children who are not your own, for of course you would use the plain style with your own kids.

Yes, I'm sure these points are all relevant since it is best to use familiar language with small kids, that is what their exposure has been and what they know how to use. Of course age is a significant factor -- by 10 most kids are starting to use polite forms appropriately, as well as some keigo. At one or they obviously won't be using complete sentences at all.

 

[J44xm]

I've been volunteering at a Japanese kindergarten (幼稚園) recently and, realizing that I wasn't sure which form I should use with the kids (especially with many mothers watching from the side), I started with polite forms but switched to casual forms once I noticed the caretaker using it. I think that was the correct move.

 

[Seito]

I've been volunteering at a Japanese kindergarten (幼稚園) recently and, realizing that I wasn't sure which form I should use with the kids (especially with many mothers watching from the side), I started with polite forms but switched to casual forms once I noticed the caretaker using it. I think that was the correct move.

Thanks, that's what I wanted to know

Being unsure, I would have started with polite forms too.

I suppose you would start to use polite forms to kids from age 9 or 10 or so, when they are familiar with them and can use them themselves...

 

[yukio_michael]

First, let me just tell you that I don't think the sole opinion which you gleaned from a single user is correct. I do not think, that as a rule, it is simply prefered to speak to children in a plain form versus a polite one.

Too polite would be something like honorific tense, or something polite-outside of coloquial speach, which sounds more awkward than "too polite"... The golden rule in Japanese is that if you are ever in doubt, you should always stick to desu/masu... not vice versa.

It seems that you've disregarded everyone eleses view points, all of which tended to be in line with each other, for a single view point which seemed to state or perhaps create the opinion that "since I experienced it this way---- this is how it is."

I'm not typing this in order for you to believe me, or anyone else in this thread. Feel free to take whatever you do from the time that people have spent answering your question---- Next time however, when you don't get a perfectly black & white answer, I'd refrain from telling people that the information they'd given you thusfar, which was very much related, was "besides the point...". It's like saying you don't understand any answer that isn't a "YES" or a "NO".

When you ask a question, you can't tell people how to answer it. If people aren't answering the question for you in the manner you like, don't bother asking it--- just make up your own answer, which you seem to have done regardless.

 

[Elizabeth]

Thanks, that's what I wanted to know
Being unsure, I would have started with polite forms too.
I suppose you would start to use polite forms to kids from age 9 or 10 or so, when they are familiar with them and can use them themselves...

It really does help to know the nature of the interaction. When you say talking to does that mean talking with, or delivering a lecture in the style school-age children are picking up from textbooks and other formal conversation ? Obviously their exposure to the desu/masu form is more limited at first and increases with growth and experience -- it doesn't mean they won't understand anything until a magic age or until they enter junior high, depending on the nature of the conversation, the particular child in question etc. It's quite a broad question for a simple answer.

 

[Seito]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

Yukio, I hope you were not offended by my recent short post, I don't think there was any need to be. I have read every post with attention, but merely gave a short answer because I had little time at that moment.

With my "Thanks, that's what I wanted to know" I didn't mean to conclude the whole thread; it's just that I was looking for examples in concrete situations, and that's exactly what J44xm gave. That doesn't mean other examples aren't welcome, on the contrary, of course. I know the style of speaking in Japanese is highly context-related, that's why I tried to specify some context in my question (like when you're a visitor in some acquaintance's home and you speak with their kids, a 2-y-o, or a 10-y-o etc.). (Yes, I always had speaking with them in mind, not giving them some kind of lecture...)

And now I have to put my youngest daughter to bed...

 

[Elizabeth]

With my "Thanks, that's what I wanted to know" I didn't mean to conclude the whole thread; it's just that I was looking for examples in concrete situations, and that's exactly what J44xm gave.

It might be a good idea to ask for that from the beginning then next time...

Kids in Japan are allowed way too much free rein in my opinion, esp to run around screaming on trains etc and other places I have to encounter them so I'm not going to have very much precise information.

Glad you found what you came for.

 

[Mike Cash]

I found this whole thread completely bizarre.

 

[Seito]

I found this whole thread completely bizarre.

???
Japanese use polite forms way more than we do in western languages and so I have no spontaneous 'feel' for them. I think I understand the rules when speaking amongst adults, I just wanted to know how they apply when conversing with children. It seemed and still seems like a very ordinary and innocent question to me...

Edit: If you mean that this conversation has taken a strange turn, I agree, and I'm sorry for it.

 

[The7thSamurai]

I speak to the kids in my clases in the plain forms. But when I'm translating a sentence in their book into Japanese I use the masu form. Dunno if it sounds weird to them though. None of them have said anything. When they speak to me they always use the plain form too.

You shouldn't be sorry for this thread, I have no idea what Mike meant. I've often wondered the same thing myself since I hang out with Japanese kids for like 3 hours everyday. It's interesting to listen to the way then speak. Like if one kid is doing something strange another kid will say 何して？ rather than 何してる or 何している or 何していますか. So in essence I get to listen to Japanese being learnt in its raw, original way.

 

[Seito]

I speak to the kids in my clases in the plain forms. But when I'm translating a sentence in their book into Japanese I use the masu form. Dunno if it sounds weird to them though. None of them have said anything. When they speak to me they always use the plain form too.
You shouldn't be sorry for this thread, I have no idea what Mike meant. I've often wondered the same thing myself since I hang out with Japanese kids for like 3 hours everyday. It's interesting to listen to the way then speak. Like if one kid is doing something strange another kid will say 窶ｰﾂｽ窶堋ｵ窶堙?？ rather than 窶ｰﾂｽ窶堋ｵ窶堙??堙ｩ or 窶ｰﾂｽ窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ or 窶ｰﾂｽ窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷ窶堋ｩ. So in essence I get to listen to Japanese being learnt in its raw, original way.

Thanks These real life examples are interesting to know, they're impossible to find in textbooks

What age are the kids you teach to, if I may ask? (Pretty young, I guess, if they speak to you in the plain form?)

And if you don't mind, could you write the Japanese expressions in rômaji (or someone else who does get them right...). I can read kana and some kanji, but since I use Mozilla as a browser, I get nothing but question marks instead of kanji. Don't know yet how to solve this.

Thanks for replying!

 

[Cierzo]

And if you don't mind, could you write the Japanese expressions in rômaji (or someone else who does get them right...). I can read kana and some kanji, but since I use Mozilla as a browser, I get nothing but question marks instead of kanji. Don't know yet how to solve this.
Thanks for replying!

Why not to check another browser? If the problem shall be the browser, I suggest Opera (opera.com). Sorry but I can´t remember if I did any change in configuration for read kana& kanji. And also, I use the normal IME of Microsoft as keyboard input and some assorted fonts. (But I don´t know is it´s related to...)

 

[Mike Cash]

I have no idea what Mike meant.

I mean there seems to be an underlying supposition that Japanese kids learn Japanese in a manner similar to the way we foreigners learn it: that they have to be sat down and taught desu/masu.

 

[Elizabeth]

I was a bit thrown at first by the assumption that relationships with children would be influenced by the same very complex factors that relate to ways adults interact, such as status and gender, degree of acquaintance etc....but than I sort of understood the reasoning that using desu/masu is taught as universal for all non-intimate, everyday "professional" interaction and the question is more natural from there...

 

[Mike Cash]

But it isn't "taught". It's an integral part of the language and they pick it up naturally.

 

[Elizabeth]

But it isn't "taught". It's an integral part of the language and they pick it up naturally.

Yeah, I mean taught to foreign Japanese learners.

日本人の場合は、丁寧語、敬語は成長するにつれて習い ます。 身につけますね。

 

[The7thSamurai]

Thanks These real life examples are interesting to know, they're impossible to find in textbooks
What age are the kids you teach to, if I may ask? (Pretty young, I guess, if they speak to you in the plain form?)
And if you don't mind, could you write the Japanese expressions in rômaji

For 'nani wo shite imasu ka' (what are you doing), the kids instead say 'nani shite', without the 'imasu' or 'iru' or 'wo' particle.

The kids I teach are from 2 years old to 12. Another interesting thing, I'm sure I heard this little 2 1/2 year old girl refer to herself as 'boku' the other day.

 

[yukio_michael]

But it isn't "taught". It's an integral part of the language and they pick it up naturally.

But isn't it common for children to pick up polite forms when they are younger? Where does a child pick up words like お咳き(おせき）oseki when they are talking about their cough, to use an example I encountered?

Don't children learn in the same way that any child learns a word or a style of language from those people who speak around them, don't they initially learn learn a polite form?

For example, from a "Connect the dots" exercise for children..

The example below is from a book for 3-year olds called O-ekaki Okeiko, (おえかき、おけいこ) "Drawing Practice"---- The "polite" prefix o-gets heavy use in language directed at children.

"てんてんをせんでつなぎましょう"
tenten o sen de tsunagimashou
"Let's connect the dots."

 

[The7thSamurai]

I remember working in a customer service job and being taught how to speak more politely in English. It was a part of the company training session. Things like using sir/ma'am, 'may I call by your given name, sir' rather than 'can I call you Bob?', 'would you happen to have your customer ID number with you, sir?' rather than 'what's your customer ID number'. With polite Japanese being much more structured than English I'm sure that there is a lot of formal learning. In fact, I've spoken to Japanese people who say they remember learning the keigo rules at school.

 

[Mike Cash]

Don't children learn in the same way that any child learns a word or a style of language from those people who speak around them, don't they initially learn learn a polite form?

Since both plain and polite forms are used around them all the time, they pick up both at the same time. They don't have to learn them separately like we do.