I'll put all my question here, so pls check the last page

d4v1d_su · 7 May 2007

Hi hi, i just started japanese last year during the summer break 2006.
I'll probably ask lots of silly questions, so I'm sorry if i get on your nerve.

Hajimemashite, kyounen no natsuyasumi ni hajimeru nihongo wo benkyou o shita.
Takusan bakanakoto o kiku kara, komaraseru hontou ni gomenazai.

^ is that right ?

so 1st question, how do you translate :
"that thing is hard to find"

is it "sonna koto o sagasu no ga muzukashii desu"
well i don't really understand what i wrote my self

and if it's possible, can you also put some explanation with.

Glenn · 7 May 2007

Hmm, I'll start with the typos.

kyounen→kyonen
gomen nazai→gomen nasai

I think kyonen no natsuyasumi ni nihongo o benkyou sihajimeta or nihongo no benkyou o hajimeta are better than what you have. Next thing: you left out "probably" in the Japanese version, and it sounds like you're going to be intentionally asking lots of stupid things. Maybe bakanakoto o takusan kiitesimau kamo shiremasenga, douzo yoroshiku onegai shimasu. Or maybe saki ni ayamarimasu would work. It gets 11,000 hits on Google, so it may be safe.

I think you should use mitsukeru rather than sagasu, as the way you have it sounds like "that kind of thing is hard to look for." But if that's your intended meaning then I guess it's ok. Sore wa mitsukeru no ga muzukashii/taihen da would probably be alternative ways to say it, but it depends on what you're focusing on too.

d4v1d_su · 7 May 2007

wow, that's fast.
thx.

Glenn said:
kyonen no natsuyasumi ni nihongo o benkyou sihajimeta

is it shihajimeta ? I cant find this word anywhere or other similar words.

bakanakoto o takusan kiitesimau kamo shiremasenga, douzo yoroshiku onegai shimasu. Or maybe saki ni ayamarimasu

what does kiitesimau kamo shiremasen ga literally mean ?
simau -> to finish
shirimasen -> is it derived from shiriru -> to be discovered
or perhaps from shiru
i dont really understand this sentence.

Sore wa mitsukeru no ga muzukashii/taihen da

what does no ga after mitsukeru do ?
All i know is that you can just say no without mentioning the object if the object is already clear.
Is it a sub-clause, like the thing, that i like it to be found, is difficult
if i want to say, it's difficult to find japanese dishes here
can i use Koko de nihonryouri o mitsukeru koto ga muzukashii desu
These particles things are really going to drain my brain.

Glenn · 7 May 2007

d4v1d_su said:
is it shihajimeta ? I cant find this word anywhere or other similar words.

It's a compound verb. Sticking hajimeru onto the masu stem gives you a meaning of "start to verb."

hashirihajimeru ﾂ?ｨ start to run
tsukurihajimeru ﾂ?ｨ start to make
tabehajimeru ﾂ?ｨ start to eat
etc.

d4v1d_su said:
what does kiitesimau kamo shiremasen ga literally mean ?
simau -> to finish
shirimasen -> is it derived from shiriru -> to be discovered
or perhaps from shiru
i dont really understand this sentence.

"I might ask, but..." Sorry, I switched up rômaji systems there. I meant to write kiiteshimau. Anyway, shimau, aside from meaning completion, can also have a sense of regret with it. Kamo shirenai is a set phrase that means "maybe" or "might." Ga is a conjunction meaning "but" here.

d4v1d_su said:
what does no ga after mitsukeru do ?
All i know is that you can just say no without mentioning the object if the object is already clear.
Is it a sub-clause, like the thing, that i like it to be found, is difficult
if i want to say, it's difficult to find japanese dishes here
can i use Koko de nihonryouri o mitsukeru koto ga muzukashii desu
These particles things are really going to drain my brain.

No is a nominalizer, and it turns sentences into noun phrases. Of course, there are other nos with different functions, but anyway. It's like "finding" or "to find." Yes, you can say koko de nihon ryouri o mitsukeru koto ga muzukashii desu.

d4v1d_su · 7 May 2007

Do the japanese speak and act like in the anime ?

i never spoke to a japanese nor i met one before. Just wanna know.

Supervin · 7 May 2007

d4v1d_su said:
i never spoke to a japanese nor i met one before.

You should move to Düsseldorf then. =P

d4v1d_su · 7 May 2007

hahaha...
o-kane wa arimasen yo.
Soriyori, atarashii machi ni hikkosu no ga kantan janai.
besides, if i were in Düsseldorf, it is not that i'm gonna greet every japanese i meet.
Just imagine that someone come to you from nowhere and say "hey, are you from germany, lets talk something about germany".
Without any other purpose I will absolutly ignore that person. And i also dont have the nerve to do something like that.

d4v1d_su · 7 May 2007

by the way, do you guys have some good tricks to remeber the kanjis ?
I know practice makes perfect, but it doesnt take 10 mins for me to forget the new kanji i learned.

Elizabeth · 7 May 2007

I think you should use mitsukeru rather than sagasu, as the way you have it sounds like "that kind of thing is hard to look for." But if that's your intended meaning then I guess it's ok. Sore wa mitsukeru no ga muzukashii/taihen da would probably be alternative ways to say it, but it depends on what you're focusing on too.

I would say most simply "Sore wa mitsukenikui mono (not koto) desu."

That is a difficult thing *assuming your target is an object, not a word in a dictionary or such* to find. This way is nice and conversational besides sounding slightly better in English than "That thing is difficult to find." Although again it all comes down to context and any nuances that need to be clearly expressed....

どういう状況かわからないので、訳すのが難しいですね。 Because I don't know the situation, it is difficult to translate, ne...I feel like such a failure now...

Mikawa Ossan · 7 May 2007

Elizabeth said:
I would say most simply "Sore wa mitsukenikui mono (not koto) desu."

Elizabeth has a good translation, and here is another try, but from a different angle:

探してもなかなか見つからないものです。
sagashite mo nakanaka mitsukaranai mono desu.

This sounds a little more natural to me, for reasons that would take a long post to explain. It means, "Even when you search for it, it's one of those things that you just don't really ever seem to find." (Translation is of course open to criticism.)

Elizabeth · 8 May 2007

Mikawa Ossan said:
Elizabeth has a good translation, and here is another try, but from a different angle:
探してもなかなか見つからないものです。
sagashite mo nakanaka mitsukaranai mono desu.
This sounds a little more natural to me, for reasons that would take a long post to explain. It means, "Even when you search for it, it's one of those things that you just don't really ever seem to find." (Translation is of course open to criticism.)

I think the only difference is an increasing level of probability it will not or cannot be found. It all depends how much has been searched in vain and how strongly the speaker feels their frustration, really.

d4v1d_su · 8 May 2007

Elizabeth said:
どういう状況かわからないので、訳すのが難しいですね。 Because I don't know the situation, it is difficult to translate, ne...I feel like such a failure now...

It is for example like that i have something nice that i bought somewhere. Then someone ask me where he/she can buy it too. It is not something common in the place where i live, but i'm quite sure that u can find it somewhere.
So i want to say that it is something hard to find.

Mikawa Ossan said:
探してもなかなか見つからないものです。
sagashite mo nakanaka mitsukaranai mono desu.

:eek2: :eek2: i completely dont understand this.
What does "mo" after sagashite mean ?
Why do u use the -te form in sagashite ?

Elizabeth said:
"Sore wa mitsukenikui mono (not koto) desu."

"mitsukenikui" i also never heard this one before.
What is actually the difference between "mono" and "koto", "omoidasu" and "oboeru" ?
i heard this one from anime :
"watashi no namae wa mada oboeteru ka ?"
and then the boy answered
"sou yu omae tatte (i'm not sure 'bout this, it just sounds like that), ore no namae oboeteru ka ?
why did they use "oboeteru", isn't it "oboeru" ?
another conversation.
"konno *** oboeteru ?" (subtitle : do you remember this area ?)
"ieee, amari"
"sonno *** omoidashita to omou yoo" (subtitle : i think you'll remember it one day )
why did she use oboeteru at first, then amoidasu in the second sentence?
and last question, sorry for asking so much :sorry: :sorry:
"kyonen no natsu made byouin datta tatemono"
what is datta ?

MeAndroo · 8 May 2007

Just to lighten the load a bit on our resident Japanese experts...
Adding -nikui or -yasui to the -masu stem gives the connotation of the verb being difficult (nikui) or easy (yasui) to perform. Thus, mitsuke -nikui means it's difficult to find. This can also be said by using the aforementioned particle "no" after a verb.

HitsugiMad4eva · 8 May 2007

I Really Wanna Learn japenese But i looks So Hard

Elizabeth · 8 May 2007

HitsugiMad4eva said:
I Really Wanna Learn japenese But i looks So Hard

If you want to ask questions here, get and read a good textbook for learning grammar through self-study. Don't study solely through anime is my very first piece of advice. Practice listening and speaking every other spare minute of the day.

Mikawa Ossan · 8 May 2007

Elizabeth said:
I think the only difference is an increasing level of probability it will not or cannot be found. It all depends how much has been searched in vain and how strongly the speaker feels their frustration, really.

Perhaps, but I have never heard a Japanese speaker say "mitsukenikui" and I think that if you must use "-nikui" then "mitsukarinikui" would be better.

i completely dont understand this.
What does "mo" after sagashite mean ?
Why do u use the -te form in sagashite ?

"sagashite mo" literally means something like "even if you look" or "even upon looking". The "mo" acts as "even if" or "even upon", and the -te form of sagasu is always used in this particular construction. It's a grammar thing.

Elizabeth · 8 May 2007

Mikawa Ossan said:
Perhaps, but I have never heard a Japanese speaker say "mitsukenikui" and I think that if you must use "-nikui" then "mitsukarinikui" would be better.

I've heard my Japanese friends and tutor use it on a number of occasions, so I'm pretty sure it's legit. The only distinction between mitsukeru and mitsukaru anway, as I understand them, is the transitive/intransitive thing. The two two verbs are parallel to "to find" (trans) and "to be found" with the former being slightly less informal or conversational.

To add another wrinkle of confusion, there is another one of those "similar kanjis, very close in meaning with different pronounciation" pairs in "みつけぐたい" (impossible to find ?) and "みつけにくい。"

日本語には、英語にない表現や、なかなか伝えにくいニュアンスが沢山ありますね。

d4v1d_su · 8 May 2007

speaking of similarities, there are too many similar words in japanese. Dont the japanese get confused themselves ?
Are there always a transitive and an intransitive form for every verb ? and how can we use them ?
for example miru and mieru.
"boku wa terebi o miru"
What is an example for mieru ?
Is it the same with active and passive sentence ? that's what i see from the meaning of those 2 words.
miru - to see
mieru - to be seen

HitsugiMad4eva said:
I Really Wanna Learn japenese But i looks So Hard

i recommend you "Japanisch im Sauseschritt"(German). They also have an English version "Japanese for Busy People". 5 Bands all (1 basic, 2 intermediate and 2 advance).
I also use this as guide and others as complements. I'm on the lower intermediate right now.
I think the most important thing in learning foreign laguage is to get the feeling. If you dont have the feeling, u r nothing but a grammar freak.
And it's kinda hard for me since i dont have any partner to talk with. Anime is the only source i can learn from.
And to tell the truth, it doesnt help much. The only phrases that catch my ears are the bad ones, like "chikusou, shimatta, baka" and such that i shouldnt say it here.
Why that kind of things are always easy to remember ? and you dont need a dictionary to understand it.

I'll put all my question here, so pls check the last page

d4v1d_su

後輩

Glenn

一切皆苦

d4v1d_su

後輩

Glenn

一切皆苦

d4v1d_su

後輩

Supervin

先輩

d4v1d_su

後輩

d4v1d_su

後輩

Elizabeth

先輩

Mikawa Ossan

いかんわ！

Elizabeth

先輩

d4v1d_su

後輩

MeAndroo

先輩

HitsugiMad4eva

後輩

Elizabeth

先輩

Mikawa Ossan

いかんわ！

Elizabeth

先輩

d4v1d_su

後輩

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