If statements

Flopjack · 7 Nov 2011

Hello everyone. First post and I'm a scrub at Japanese. My first question (of many I'm sure) is about if statements. My understanding is as follows:

犬を買うとお金が足りません。
If (you) buy (the) dog (you) won't (have) enough money.

The と if statement outlines absolutes. If x happens, y will happen as a result. It also outlines expectations, assumptions and guesses.

皆さんが行くなら、僕もいきますよ。
If everyone goes, I (will) go, too.

なら if statement can be used with nouns or う form verbs. ば may be added after なら for a formal nuance.

私たちの友達に会えば、買い物に行けます。
If (we) meet our friends, (we) can go shopping.

また彼は遅くなければ、手伝います。
If he's not late again again, (I) will help.

ば can only be used with え form verbs and い adjs. With verbs it's saying "If [this] is able to happen/be/come to pass, then [this]. Does the same logic apply for い adjs? ば focuses on the condition, hence the え form usage implying if it's possible.

学生だったら、学生わりびきで買えます。
If (you're a) student, (you) can buy (it) with a student discount.

たら is the most commonly used if statement. It's always used with the past tense and can be used with nouns, verbs and both adj types. Focuses on the result.

To summarize:
と = Condition + absolute/expected result
ば = え verbs, いadjs only, focuses on condition
なら = nouns, う verbs (+ other stuff?), focuses on result
たら = most common, past tense, nouns, verbs and both adjs

Thanks in advance for incoming help.

Mike Cash · 7 Nov 2011

The first example sentence isn't clear, even in English. If you buy the dog, you won't have enough money for what?

Flopjack · 7 Nov 2011

I'm omitting context. What's important here is the structure of organizing if statements in Japanese, not what the money is for.

Toritoribe · 7 Nov 2011

What do う form verbs and え form verbs refer to? Maybe the conclusive/dictionary form of verbs(終止形) and the -ba conditional form of verbs(仮定形), respectively?

Mike Cash · 7 Nov 2011

Flopjack said:
I'm omitting context. What's important here is the structure of organizing if statements in Japanese, not what the money is for.

It strikes me that lack of context makes it difficult to tell whether と or えば would be the more appropriate choice.

For that matter, it could be that the lack of money refers to not having enough money to feed and care for the dog, which could be a different construction completely.

Flopjack · 7 Nov 2011

Toritoribe said:
What do う form verbs and え form verbs refer to? Maybe the conclusive/dictionary form of verbs(終止形) and the -ba conditional form of verbs(仮定形), respectively?

Yes, I think. Example:
買う - う form
買えます。 - え form

Mike Cash said:
It strikes me that lack of context makes it difficult to tell whether と or えば would be the more appropriate choice.

For that matter, it could be that the lack of money refers to not having enough money to feed and care for the dog, which could be a different construction completely.

That's why I put down a translation then an explanation.

Mike Cash · 7 Nov 2011

The translation was just as unclear, unfortunately, and the explanation of the nature of と of itself isn't enough to make it clear whether the sentence should use 買うと、買えば、買ったら or 買うなら. Context would help.

nice gaijin · 7 Nov 2011

Japanese is a contextual language. Omitting the context omits the main reason for choosing one structure over another. Why else would there be so many ways to form conditional statements?

Toritoribe · 7 Nov 2011

Flopjack said:
Example:
買う - う form
買えます。 - え form

You are confusing -ba conditional forms with potential forms. These two forms are seemingly the same in godan verbs but actually different, as you can see in ichidan or irregular verbs. The -ba conditional has no implication of "if possible" by itself alone. (会えれば/買えれば/食べられれば/来られれば can have it.)

godan
買う(dictionary)
買います(polite)
買える(potential)
買えます(polite potential)
買えば(-ba conditional)
買えれば(-ba conditional of potential)

ichidan
食べる(dictionary)
食べます(polite)
食べられる(potential)
食べられます(polite potential)
食べれば(-ba conditional)
食べられれば(-ba conditional of potential)

kuru irregular
来[く]る(dictionary)
来[き]ます(polite)
来[こ]られる(potential)
来[こ]られます(polite potential)
来[く]れば(-ba conditional)
来[こ]られれば(-ba conditional of potential)

nekojita · 7 Nov 2011

I quite like this page:
Japanese (English explanation + romaji examples)
Japanese (same but in Japanese)

I think an important thing to remember is that たら is not always an "if". e.g. (example stolen from a recipe)
両面に焼き色が付いたら、弱火にする
When both sides are browned, turn heat to low.

Flopjack · 8 Nov 2011

Toritoribe said:
You are confusing -ba conditional forms with potential forms. These two forms are seemingly the same in godan verbs but actually different, as you can see in ichidan or irregular verbs. The -ba conditional has no implication of "if possible" by itself alone. (会えれば/買えれば/食べられれば/来られれば can have it.)

I see. Can you give me an example or point me to a few? If I haven't given enough information for my if statements, what would a complete sentences be?

nekojita said:
I think an important thing to remember is that たら is not always an "if". e.g. (example stolen from a recipe)
両面に焼き色が付いたら、弱火にする
When both sides are browned, turn heat to low.

Can't you still translate this to "If both sides are brown, turn heat to low."?

Mike Cash · 8 Nov 2011

"When" both sides are brown. As you can see, not all conditional statements are "if" statements.

Toritoribe · 8 Nov 2011

Flopjack said:
Can you give me an example or point me to a few? If I haven't given enough information for my if statements, what would a complete sentences be?

腐ったものを食べれば、お腹を壊します。
If you eat rotten food, you'll have stomach trouble.

腐ったものが食べられれば、食糧問題は解決します。
If you can eat rotten food, the food problem can be solved.

友達に会えばいいのに。
I think you should see your friends.

友達に会えればいいのに。
I wish I/you could see my/your friends.

Flopjack said:
Can't you still translate this to "If both sides are brown, turn heat to low."?

nekojita-san's example expresses "certain future". The subordinate clause is not concerned with whether both sides are browned or not. The writer treats "both sides are browned" as a certain fact that must occur(The sentence is from a recipe, so it's mentioned that the stove was already turned on previously), and says "you turn heat to low, when it happens, and not if it happens".

Rei Yahya · 9 Nov 2011

My Japanese textbook explains the if statements in this way:

~ば
A one-two, if this happens, then this will happen.
安くければ買います。if it's cheap I will buy it.

~なら(ば)
An if based on condition or observation of circumstances.
暑いんなら上着を脱ぎなさい。
If you're hot, take off your coat.

~と
The realistic if. What follows the if statement is factual.
飛行機だと早く着きます。
If you take the plane you'll get there earlier.

~たら
The unrealistic condition.
私が鳥だったら、あなたの所へ飛んで行くでしょう。
If I were a bird, I'd fly to you.

Toritoribe · 9 Nov 2011

The site nekojita-san linked is incomparably better than that.
Those examples can be rephrased like this.

安かったら/安いなら買います。
暑いんだったら/暑ければ上着を脱ぎなさい。
飛行機なら/飛行機だったら早く着きます。
私が鳥なら、あなたの所へ飛んで行くでしょう。

If statements

Flopjack

後輩

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Flopjack

後輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Flopjack

後輩

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

nice gaijin

Resident Realist

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

nekojita

先輩

Flopjack

後輩

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Rei Yahya

ぺらぺらになりたい生徒

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

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