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Confirmation or Denial of Statement

zxuiji

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First some context of why I made this statement, a colleague of mine likes to blag that he knows japanese (while repeating a single set of words -maybe a sentence from some anime- no matter what question I give him) so I finally got annoyed enough to send him this statement:
ナバンは日本語を分かれば、明日が元気を持ってくる
If I pieced that together correctly then it should have said "Navan, if understand japanese, bring genki tomorrow". So did I piece it together correctly or did I get it wrong again?
 

mdchachi

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Wrong but close enough for your purposes.
 

zxuiji

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Ah ok, for reference where did I go wrong?
 

mdchachi

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Main issues I see are:
明日が - if you use が you are making 明日 the subject (the one bringing the textbook)
元気 - I assume you mean the textbook but the textbook doesn't use kanji for its title.
持ってくる - this is not a command/request so it implies that you will bring it, not that you're requesting him to bring it.
 

zxuiji

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Genki is simple enough so I'll try to remember not to use kanji with that next time
Mottekuru I can probably find the right version when I look for it later (edit: I'm thinking 持ってきて)
The ga particle I'm not sure on though, the only other one that comes to mind is the de particle, goro or just plain omiting it altogether, what would you have put there?
 
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mdchachi

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Genki is simple enough so I'll try to remember not to use kanji with that next time
Mottekuru I can probably find the right version when I look for it later (edit: I'm thinking 持ってきて)
The ga particle I'm not sure on though, the only other one that comes to mind is the de particle, goro or just plain omiting it altogether, what would you have put there?
Yes, 持ってきて.
In this case I'd omit the particle for 明日. 明日持ってきてください. For date/time に would be the typical choice. 火曜日に持ってきてください.
 

zxuiji

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Not expecting to get this right but I'll try anyway, my intended statement is "time to sleep"
時は寝るよ
I'll check back tomorrow after a blood test (been a while since had health check up so used an appointent I booked for something else as an opportunity to do so when that something had healed before the appointment) to check if I got that right
 

mdchachi

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I would write time to sleep as 寝る時間.
 

zxuiji

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I was reading genki just now and was reading through its example list of short form adjectives, something I always struggled with understanding was A. how to distinguish a な adjective from an い adjective and B. The difference between short form & long form verbs (e.g 勉強 & 勉強する)

For the first one I noticed that both the な adjectives given had 漢字 in them while the い adjective had only ひりがな in it, would it be correct to say that's a good way to distinguish them?

For the second one I though perhaps the short form like 勉強 would be an adjective while the long form would be the verb like below:
勉強人= studious person = studier
人は勉強すって = person studying
 

mdchachi

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For the first one I noticed that both the な adjectives given had 漢字 in them while the い adjective had only ひりがな in it, would it be correct to say that's a good way to distinguish them?
Not exactly but い adjective always has い in them in it's positive/present form so that's the main thing to look at.
Without the kanji it's more difficult because for a word like きれい it's hard to tell if it's an い adjective or not. But in kanji 綺麗 is obvious since there is no い. In this case then the problem becomes knowing if it's a なadjective or a noun (which takes の).


For the second one I though perhaps the short form like 勉強 would be an adjective while the long form would be the verb like below:
勉強人= studious person = studier
人は勉強すって = person studying
I would not say these are short/long form verbs.
勉強 is a noun. 勉強する is a verb.
勉強人 is not a valid word as far as I can tell. You could say this by saying 勉強する人 = person who studies.
人は勉強すって also is not correct. studying would be 勉強している and person studying would be 勉強している人.
Or the person is studying would be 人は勉強している.
I think the main question here is what nouns can accept する to become verbs. For the most part it's just memorization and common sense.
 

zxuiji

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Thanks, could you give me an example of 勉強 being used without する please, not being able to distinguish it's usage just makes it confusing when I see it on memrise (yes still using it and studying the 漢字 was totally worth it because it made much of the words easier to remember when they pop up again after a while of not seeing them)
 

mdchachi

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私は勉強が好きです ==> I like studying (could also mean I like academics).

勉強を続きますか? ==> Will you continue studying? Or Will you continue your studies?

昨年、日本語の勉強を始めました ==> I started my Japanese studies last year.
 

zxuiji

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thanks, at work so can't give much focus here
 

Toritoribe

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Sorry for nitpicking, but 勉強を続ますか? is correct (続く-intransitive vs. 続ける-transitive).

As for the OP's misunderstanding of the terms, the short(or dictionary) form and long form of verbs refer to the non-polite/casual form and polite form of verbs in Genki, respectively. Thus, the short form is 勉強する and the long form is 勉強します. 勉強 is not the short form of the verb at all. It's a noun, as already pointed out.
e.g.
行く (short from)
行きます (long form)

食べる (short from)
食べます (long form)

する (short from)
します (long form)

来る (short from)
来ます (long form)
 

mdchachi

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Sorry for nitpicking, but 勉強を続ますか? is correct (続く-intransitive vs. 続ける-transitive).
I expect nothing less from you. Thanks. :)
As for the OP's misunderstanding of the terms, the short(or dictionary) form and long form of verbs refer to the non-polite/casual form and polite form of verbs in Genki, respectively.
I didn't know Genki used that terminology. His example just showed 勉強 & 勉強する as short and long. Either way it's a fundamental misunderstanding. Thanks again.
勉強になりました
This was actually the first thing I thought of but I withheld it because I didn't want to have to explain how になる works. :LOL:
 

zxuiji

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Oh I got that you meant "was studying", I'm well aware of なる's meaning as "to become" as memrise although im this case I think it was closer to "to be", that one stands out in my memory because of Naruto, fits with his name and eventual fulfillment of his goal "to become hokage", gonna read the Bible now, I'll respond to the other stuff after I finish a chapter
 

zxuiji

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Sorry for nitpicking, but 勉強を続ますか? is correct (続く-intransitive vs. 続ける-transitive).
This intransitive/transitive currently confuses me also, these are currently how I'm thinking it means:
続く would be used for sentences like "Do not continue?" (although that one I suspect would be just "続かないか" or "続かない?") while the other would be using in a sentence like "He's not continuing" (which I think would be "彼は続けらない")
As for the OP's misunderstanding of the terms, the short(or dictionary) form and long form of verbs refer to the non-polite/casual form and polite form of verbs in Genki, respectively. Thus, the short form is 勉強する and the long form is 勉強します. 勉強 is not the short form of the verb at all. It's a noun, as already pointed out.
e.g.
行く (short from)
行きます (long form)

食べる (short from)
食べます (long form)

する (short from)
します (long form)

来る (short from)
来ます (long form)
Those I'm not confused by, what I meant by being confused by long & short form were (as the memrise Genki Module 1 puts it)勉強="study" & 勉強する="to study" without any examples which causes me to think of them as carrying the same meaning but being phrased slightly differently, in order to seperate those meanings and stop confusing similar sets I needed the examples side by side (gonna take a proper look at what (Edit 2: mdchachi) gave after this now that I have time for it)

Edit: Forgot to mention that the treatment I gave する earlier was a slip up, in my haste to post I forgot about the exception
 
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zxuiji

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私は勉強が好きです ==> I like studying (could also mean I like academics).
I woulda thought that should be "私は勉強してが好きです", how are they different?

勉強を続きますか? ==> Will you continue studying? Or Will you continue your studies?
While I get the meaning is the same the translation in my mind should only be the second one if 勉強 is supposed to be treated as a noun, is that wrong, if so how?

昨年、日本語の勉強を始めました ==> I started my Japanese studies last year.
Okay that's nice and easy to digest, so to be accurate the translative text in memrise and genki should have read "study/studies" instead to help properly seperate the usage in a learner's head like myself. Someone remind me what the equivalent for cook would be, I keep getting "cook/(topic/subject's) cooking" show up in my mind which I somehow think is off
 

mdchachi

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I woulda thought that should be "私は勉強してが好きです", how are they different?
I wrote "I like studying" because that is the natural English translation but really 勉強 is a noun so perhaps it would have been less confusing if I said I like studies.
勉強している does indeed mean studying. But you can't add が and turn it into a noun phrase. However you can do this with a verb in plain form.
In other words you could say 私は勉強するのが好きです which means I like to study or 私は勉強しているのが好きです to mean I like studying.
But for practical use one would just say 勉強が好きです and not differentiate in this way.

While I get the meaning is the same the translation in my mind should only be the second one if 勉強 is supposed to be treated as a noun, is that wrong, if so how?
It depends on the context. If somebody is sitting there in the library studying and you're thinking of leaving you might say that phrase to mean "will you continue studying?" If you're talking to somebody about their career path you might ask them if they intend to continue their studies.

Okay that's nice and easy to digest, so to be accurate the translative text in memrise and genki should have read "study/studies" instead to help properly seperate the usage in a learner's head like myself. Someone remind me what the equivalent for cook would be, I keep getting "cook/(topic/subject's) cooking" show up in my mind which I somehow think is off
You mean 料理? Yes this is a similar noun/するverb. It might be easier to think of 料理 as cuisine and 料理する as cooking. Then the noun/verb differentiation is easier to see.
 

zxuiji

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Ah that is much easier to understand now, thanks :)
 
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