Question Honorifics

TurkeySloth · 30 Aug 2021

I've mentioned my character Koyama Ryuu a few times before. Currently, I'm transitioning her profile into the first person. I have a few questions about which honorific(s) are okay to use considering the people reading her profile will be playing characters completely unrelated to her and, while the setting's nominally modern, the Sengoku-jidai started later and is still ongoing.

1. Is "-me" okay to use for showing her humility with the first consideration above?
2. Is "-dono" applicable, even though she's not the clan's head?
3. Since she'll mention her mom and dad (also Koyamas), can she differentiate them by using separate honorifics? Of note, her father's the daimyō.

(I didn't mean or expect this to be sticky when I created it using the eeasy thread creation tool. But, seeing how many other threads there are about honorifics, I understand why it's sticky. Thus, feel free to remove the sticky, if you'd like.)

Majestic · 30 Aug 2021

1. I don't understand this first one. You mean, when she is referencing herself in Japanese? She wouldn't address herself with any honororific on the end of her own name. It would be ok for her to just use watakushi, when talking about herself.
2. When other people are addressing her? Its quite tricky to figure this out when we don't know all the relationsships, because different people of different status will refer to her using different honorifics. One way is to call her "Ojō" (お嬢), but this isn't always situation appropriate. Dono wouldn't be right for her.
3. Nowadays people would use Chichi-ue and Haha-ue for dad and mom (respectively). I think this would still be appropriate for sengoku-jidai, but I'm not certain.

TurkeySloth · 30 Aug 2021

Okay. Thanks for you input.

Firstly, accordng to TV Tropes, "... {a}dding "-me" to your own name or a first-person pronoun has a self-humbling effect." For example, if the clan system were non-existant, she'd, likely show her humility by introducing herself to readers as "Koyama-me". However, the clan system's existance put more importance on status within said clan than humility, which might render the honorific (-me) inappropriate.

In terms of the profile I'm reworking, -dono would've just replaced whichever introductory honorific I used for her. However, it could've also been used on various sites as profile name. Although, considering her high status within the clan, -hime or some other upper-crust suffix seems more appropriate.

Since the profile's readers (and characters they're portraying) don't know my character personally, I was thinking something like Koyama-san for mum (Akemi; deceased) and Koyama-dono for dad (Toshio).

Toritoribe · 30 Aug 2021

1)
"-me" is not an honorific title. It's a derogatory suffix, therefore it works as a humble expression when referring to the speaker themselves.

Even in a context where "-me" is appropriate, Koyama-me is inappropriate since it gives a derogatory nuance to all the Koyama clan. Ryū-me can be used, but I think it's rare because she is a kind of princess. I would use just Ryū or O-Ryū.

2)
Ryū-dono, Ryū-hime or just Hime all work well.

3)
I agree with Majestic-san. Chichiue and hahaue would be the most common.

"-san" was not used in that era. Also, you need to pay attention to the wordings they use. It's different from the modern ones. Jidaigeki characters never use expressions that are used only in modern Japanese. It's also different from the language that were really used in that period, though.

TurkeySloth · 31 Aug 2021

Okay. That makes perfect sense, in general. Although, contextually speaking, my setting's Sengoku Era in 1864, at the latest. Thus, they'd have been speaking either Early Modern Japanese or Modern Japanese at the time. Granted, I still might want to have a few archaeisms to make it clear this Japan's not fully modernized. Therefore, I must ask: which among these would be appropriate for general use?

Toritoribe · 31 Aug 2021

Indeed Early Modern Japanese or Modern Japanese were used in that period, but actually the term "Modern Japanese" is tricky. Early Modern Japanese is the English translation of 近世日本語, which was mostly used in the latter part of Edo period. The language spoken from the end of Edo period to the middle of Meiji period is 近代日本語, and the one we are using now is 現代日本語. The problem is that these two Japanese languages are both called "Modern Japanese" in English, even though they are different. Thus, the language your characters speak is not the same as Modern Japanese, which usually refers to 現代日本語.

You said your setting is 1864, so it's safe to think that they are using 近世日本語, i.e., Early Modern Japanese. The page you are referring to is mostly talking about 現代日本語, so the explanations of honorific titles are hardly helpful to your settings, I think.

TurkeySloth · 31 Aug 2021

I knew the explainations might end up being superfulous. However, my setting will be completely modern, except that its Sengoku jidai started in 1864, at the very latest. Granted, it's likely to have started earlier.

Toritoribe · 1 Sep 2021

Does that mean the Meiji Restoration didn't occur, and the history after that is different from the real one? If so, the language your characters use must be rather different from 現代日本語 we are using now...

Anyway, it's fiction after all. I recommend using jidaigeki-like language to add a nuance of sengoku period to your story even though the period is modern, just in my opinion.

TurkeySloth · 1 Sep 2021

In my timeline, the Ashikaga bakufu lasted until 1603 without the succession crisis. Then, the as-of-yet-unnamed Emperor regained control similar to how Meiji did. But, there was a succession crisis in 1714, which split the court and kicked off an unnamed bakufu. Finally, the Sengoku jidai started in the mid-to-late nineteenth centuty.

Toritoribe · 1 Sep 2021

Well, my opinion doesn't change. Or rather, even Early Modern Japanese (近世日本語) would be different from the real one in your settings, which was highly influenced by Edo dialect where the Bakufu was located.

My point is "jidaigeki-like language", i.e., pseudo-classical Japanese, which is neither real classical nor modern Japanese.

Question Honorifics

TurkeySloth

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Majestic

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TurkeySloth

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Toritoribe

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TurkeySloth

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Toritoribe

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TurkeySloth

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Toritoribe

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TurkeySloth

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Toritoribe

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