Help with inked stamps on Yosegaki

LenR · 24 Jun 2019

I wonder if a kind member might offer some insight into the pictured stamps on a Yosegaki flag. I believe the 3 red stamps represent shrines - perhaps they could be identified?
The stamps have faded over time and are not that clear. The other symbol in black which looks like a cogged wheel is a mystery?
Any help would be much appreciated.
Sincerely,
Len R

Toritoribe · 24 Jun 2019

The stamps are rotated 90 degrees to the left.
Those are written in seal script, so it's hard to recognize. Can you provide us a picture of the whole flag? It might be helpful to read it.

LenR · 24 Jun 2019

Toritoribe said:
The stamps are rotated 90 degrees to the left.
Those are written in seal script, so it's hard to recognize. Can you provide us a picture of the whole flag? It might be helpful to read it.

Thank you Toritoribe. Attached are images of the flag in 2 parts. The flag was acquired 20 plus years ago in Yokohama and has been stored folded in a poly bag. Any additional information you may be able to provide would be appreciated.
Len R

Toritoribe · 24 Jun 2019

There is only one patriotic slogan 祈武運長久 "eternal good luck in battle", and the name of a university 電機学校 Denki Gakkō, the present 東京電機大学 Tokyo Denki University on the flag. The rest are all just signatures of the senders. There is no recipient's name there. Unfortunately, I can't find any additional information to identify the stamps.

LenR · 24 Jun 2019

Toritoribe said:
There is only one patriotic slogan 祈武運長久 "eternal good luck in battle", and the name of a university 電機学校 Denki Gakkō, the present 東京電機大学 Tokyo Denki University on the flag. The rest are all just signatures of the senders. There is no recipient's name there. Unfortunately, I can't find any additional information to identify the stamps.

Thanks again Toritoribe for taking the time to offer an opinion. Do you think that the " cogged" wheel symbol could be a Mon/ Kumon?
Len R

Toritoribe · 24 Jun 2019

Probably, yes. It might be a mon of a shrine/temple, not kamon of a family, just in my impression.

LenR · 24 Jun 2019

Toritoribe said:
Probably, yes. It might be a mon of a shrine/temple, not kamon of a family, just in my impression.

Once again my thanks for your kind assistance.
Sincerely,
Len R

LenR · 25 Jun 2019

LenR said:
Once again my thanks for your kind assistance.
Sincerely,
Len R

Hello Toritoribe, I wonder if you could kindly point to the location of the Denki Gekko kanji on the flag. Try as I might I cannot identify it.
The patriotic slogan is easily identified.
Thank you in advance for your kind assistance.
Len R

Majestic · 25 Jun 2019

電機学校 is the part written directly under the red circle, aligned with the circle, not perpendicular to it. The phrase is written right to left. It is cut in half in the two photos you posted, so one half has the 電機 part, and the other half has the 学校 part. Actually it uses the old kanji for 学, so it reads 電機學校.
Also, I thought the top two for this one could be Okayama 岡山 (a prefecture in Japan),

LenR · 25 Jun 2019

Majestic said:
電機学校 is the part written directly under the red circle, aligned with the circle, not perpendicular to it. The phrase is written right to left. It is cut in half in the two photos you posted, so one half has the 電機 part, and the other half has the 学校 part. Actually it uses the old kanji for 学, so it reads 電機學校.
Also, I thought the top two for this one could be Okayama 岡山 (a prefecture in Japan),
View attachment 29229

Hello Majestic, appreciate you taking the time to respond and offer an opinion on the red ink seal.
Attached is an image of the Denki Gakko kanji I believe you are referring to in your reply?

Majestic · 25 Jun 2019

That's right - you got it.

LenR · 25 Jun 2019

Majestic said:
That's right - you got it.

Much appreciated.
Sincerely,
Len R

joadbres · 25 Jun 2019

With an assist from @Majestic , I deciphered the third seal.

It reads 岡部之印 oka-be-no-in "seal of Okabe".

Okabe (pronounced "oh-kah-beh") could be a family name, company name, etc.

LenR · 25 Jun 2019

joadbres said:
With an assist from @Majestic , I deciphered the third seal.

It reads 岡部之印 oka-be-no-in "seal of Okabe".

Okabe (pronounced "oh-kah-beh") could be a family name, company name, etc.

Hello Joadbres, appreciate you taking the time to help with the deciphering of the seal.
Thank you.
Len R

LenR · 25 Jun 2019

LenR said:
Hello Joadbres, appreciate you taking the time to help with the deciphering of the seal.
Thank you.
Len R

Hello again Joadbres & Majestic, a web search for "Okabe" found a company founded by Kumezo Okabe in 1932 called OKABE MICA to manufacture electrical insulation products. This may just be a coincidence but since there is the reference on the flag to the technical ( electrical ) school Denki Gakko there may be a connection?
Sincerely,
Len R

joadbres · 25 Jun 2019

LenR said:
there may be a connection?

It could be relevant, but could be a coincidence. Okabe is not an uncommon name.

The middle of the three stamps is your best bet, as it has more characters in it, so is a more detailed, specific name. In the photos you have provided so far, though, it is too faded for me to make out. Do you think it is possible to take another hi-res photo of the middle stamp with different lighting conditions (different angle, intensity, etc.) that would allow us to see the lines in it a little more clearly? That seems worth a try.

Majestic · 25 Jun 2019

In the hope that it will inspire Joadbres to have another wave of insight...

I thought the second half (the left side) of this one might be 軒 (ken). I can't imagine what the right side is. Maybe something like 巴 or 邑?

joadbres · 25 Jun 2019

Majestic said:
I thought the second half (the left side) of this one might be 軒 (ken). I can't imagine what the right side is. Maybe something like 巴 or 邑?

My best guess is 明軒 (mei-ken).

Businesses with this name seem to all be restaurants. I found at least two restaurants with the name 明〇軒 (mei*ken, with a third character in between 明 and 軒) that were already in operation prior to WWII, so this seems plausible.

LenR · 26 Jun 2019

joadbres said:
My best guess is 明軒 (mei-ken).

Businesses with this name seem to all be restaurants. I found at least two restaurants with the name 明〇軒 (mei*ken, with a third character in between 明 and 軒) that were already in operation prior to WWII, so this seems plausible.

Joadbres & Majestic, my thanks to you both for your kind assistance in deciphering the inked stamps.
I have re photographed the 3 stamps in question and do not believe I will be able to enhance them further.
Please let me know if you are able to make anything of them.
Thank you.
Len R

Majestic · 26 Jun 2019

Once again I think Joadbres nailed it with 明. If we keep this up we can go into business.

The one in the middle looks like (again, right to left) 月囗人 (tsuki - something - jin). The "something" looks vaguely like 孟.

But these are just random kanji, and they don't mean anything (to me) when combined. All of these stamps looks like names of businesses, shops, or people. If they were from a shrine or a school or factory - where a collective effort may have gone in to sending someone off to war, it would lend some credibility to the flag overall. As obscure, seemingly random stamps, it makes me think, "Is this really a legitimate ww2 flag, or is somebody trying to tart up a flag to make it look like a ww2 flag?".

LenR · 26 Jun 2019

Majestic said:
Once again I think Joadbres nailed it with 明. If we keep this up we can go into business.

The one in the middle looks like (again, right to left) 月囗人 (tsuki - something - jin). The "something" looks vaguely like 孟.

But these are just random kanji, and they don't mean anything (to me) when combined. All of these stamps looks like names of businesses, shops, or people. If they were from a shrine or a school or factory - where a collective effort may have gone in to sending someone off to war, it would lend some credibility to the flag overall. As obscure, seemingly random stamps, it makes me think, "Is this really a legitimate ww2 flag, or is somebody trying to tart up a flag to make it look like a ww2 flag?".

Hello Majestic, thanks again for your input. Your comments about being a legitimate WW2 flag are of course well founded with many made up ones in circulation. Something of a gamble for the collector and historian. Testing of the fabrics in this case would at least indicate that the materials are of 30's / 40's vintage but again no iron clad guarantee.
Len R

joadbres · 26 Jun 2019

LenR said:
I have re photographed the 3 stamps in question and do not believe I will be able to enhance them further.

Thanks for doing that. Yes, it looks like it is not going to get any clearer.
I don't think I will be able to decipher the middle seal.
For what it's worth, the third (upper middle) character is 重.

LenR · 26 Jun 2019

joadbres said:
Thanks for doing that. Yes, it looks like it is not going to get any clearer.
I don't think I will be able to decipher the middle seal.
For what it's worth, the third (upper middle) character is 重.

Hello Joadbres, I appreciate your kind assistance in this matter.
On the subject of seals I wonder if you would venture an opinion on the one in the attached images.
A former Japanese colleague who looked at it some years ago was of the opinion it was the stamp of the TAISHA NANGU shrine in Gifu.
Would welcome your thoughts.
Sincerely,
Len R

joadbres · 27 Jun 2019

LenR said:
On the subject of seals I wonder if you would venture an opinion on the one in the attached images.
A former Japanese colleague who looked at it some years ago was of the opinion it was the stamp of the TAISHA NANGU shrine in Gifu.

Yes, that is correct, except the shrine is (today) called Nangu Taisha, not Taisha Nangu.

Specifically, the seal reads as follows: "國幣大社南宮神社" (Kokuhei-Taisha Nangu Jinja), which was the full name of the shrine at that time.

Interestingly, a different flag stamped with a seal with the exact same reading was posted on this forum several years ago, and @Majestic commented on it at that time, explaining the full name of the shrine. In a nutshell, the first four characters are like a title or a descriptor, whereas the last four are the actual shrine name. The shrine has been renamed since that time, and instead of Nangu Jinja is now called Nangu Taisha (南宮大社).

Incidentally, if you compare the seal on your flag with the one from the earlier post, you can see that the actual physical stamps which were used to make the imprints are not identical, although they are quite similar.

Here is a link to the earlier post with @Majestic 's explanation of the name: Translation on this Yosegaki Hinomaru Flag

LenR · 27 Jun 2019

Hello Joadbres, once again my sincere thanks for a most informative answer.
Attached please see an image of the complete flag. There are 2 groupings of kanji with bold brush strokes on the right. I am familiar with the slogan on the upper right but not the one to the immediate left.
Any thoughts?
Len R

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