Have I been learning kanji the right way?

Razahia · 4 Sep 2013

Hello, To be fair my memory has always been great.

I have been making flashcards with the Kanji on one side and the readings on another, and pretty much been memorizing them. I know 179 Kanji so far and can pretty much read them if okurigana is after it. However if it's combined I'm pretty much screwed since my vocabulary isn't quite there.

I'm just wondering.

Glenn · 5 Sep 2013

One thing to keep in mind: learning the shapes/construction of the characters and learning their readings and uses are two different things, so you can bog your mind down trying to do them all at once. If you're having problems remembering them, that's going to be a big part of why. Also, it's not that uncommon to have to learn a character multiple times.

Now, what do you mean exactly by "if it's combined I'm pretty much screwed"? That seems backwards to me, but we're coming at this from two different places.

eeky · 5 Sep 2013

I once tried to learn kanji readings by rote, in isolation from their actual use as or in words, and it drove me nuts. It was like remembering meaningless random digits. I soon gave up. If you say you have a great memory then I suppose you may be able to stick it.

I did learn the basic meanings of all the joyo kanji by rote, and for me this has proved a huge benefit. However, it takes a long time, and even when you've finished you do have to keep refreshing your memory every so often, otherwise you forget.

I used to use physical flashcards, but a limitation is that they are always the same font, and you can get to rely on features that are not the same in other fonts. Therefore I now use an electronic system that gives me characters in a random font.

Razahia · 5 Sep 2013

Glenn said:
One thing to keep in mind: learning the shapes/construction of the characters and learning their readings and uses are two different things, so you can bog your mind down trying to do them all at once. If you're having problems remembering them, that's going to be a big part of why. Also, it's not that uncommon to have to learn a character multiple times.

Now, what do you mean exactly by "if it's combined I'm pretty much screwed"? That seems backwards to me, but we're coming at this from two different places.

I mean that if I see kanji combined to form a word I wouldn't be able to read it because of the multiple readings and the fact I don't know a lot of vocabulary to tell how to form the word

As for forgetting the kanji Besides occasionally forgetting the picture any kanji i've learned I can tell you every reading.

Razahia · 5 Sep 2013

To be fair it doe feel like at this point memorizing random digits. The problem is I really only need to spend about half an hour on a few kanji and I have it engraved in my mind.

And by basic meanings you mean just what the actual kanji means and not it's readings? Isn't that like learning a kanji twice

Glenn · 5 Sep 2013

You should learn more words. You know the difference between on and kun readings, right?

eeky · 5 Sep 2013

Razahia said:
And by basic meanings you mean just what the actual kanji means and not it's readings? Isn't that like learning a kanji twice

I mean for 魚 learn "fish", and for 洪 learn "flood", and so on times about 2000. I don't know about "learning a kanji twice"; obviously there are two parts to a kanji, how it's pronounced and what it means. You need both. Of course, native speakers didn't learn the meaning in another language, like "fish", but if you are already a speaker of another language then it is very hard, most probably impossible, to avoid, at least at the outset, until you become so fluent you can think in the language (which I am nowhere even remotely close to). The more complicated or conceptual kanji can have quite a few shades of meaning, or even quite distinct meanings, depending on context, so ultimately a very simple (equivalent to "one word") concept will not be enough. But to get started it is a big help, or so I've found.

Razahia · 5 Sep 2013

Glenn said:
You should learn more words. You know the difference between on and kun readings, right?

Besides that on readings are the chinese readings and usaully used in compounds and kun are the japanese readings and usaully read alone. Not much

Glenn · 5 Sep 2013

Well, that's the gist of it. So you're telling me you can't get the readings for, say, 銀行, 学校, 国語, or 教室, but you can easily get 行う, 学ぶ, 国 (maybe not this one), and 教える? It's hard to know what you know and what you don't.

SomeCallMeChris · 5 Sep 2013

I wouldn't recommend studying kanji the way you're doing it. It results in knowing a bunch of readings but not being able to read. I know this from experience.

You could learn one example word and that one reading for each of the kanji that you want to learn, and that would be similar but better. You might consider learning the radicals as that helps understand more complex characters. You might look at Heisig's Remembering the Kanji, which many people love and many people hate.

You might simply learn vocabulary and then learn the kanji needed for that vocabulary rather than learning kanji from a list.

There's a -lot- of ways to learn the Kanji, but I wouldn't do it the way you are doing it. (Well, I did, and regret it, and wouldn't do it again.)

Razahia · 5 Sep 2013

Glenn said:
Well, that's the gist of it. So you're telling me you can't get the readings for, say, 銀行, 学校, 国語, or 教室, but you can easily get 行う, 学ぶ, 国 (maybe not this one), and 教える? It's hard to know what you know and what you don't.

Pretty much. I'm not positive sure on the first one, I believe it's okonau, but it also could be yuku or iku. second one is manabu, third is koku I believe, last one i have yet to learn.

But yea. That's it

letianchen · 5 Sep 2013

Hi get anki. Get a word.

暗記, on the flip side type in あんき and the english definition.

Thats the best way IMO. Learn them as words! eventually you can guess stuff if you want learn
教える＝おしえる
教室＝きょうしつ
etc

Morphling · 5 Sep 2013

Razahia said:
Pretty much. I'm not positive sure on the first one, I believe it's okonau, but it also could be yuku or iku. second one is manabu, third is koku I believe, last one i have yet to learn.

But yea. That's it

I agree with Glenn. My advice would be don't learn kanji individually. Not even Chinese school children can handle it. Just learn words for what they are and pick up the kanji through natural vocabulary.

Japanese is essentially 2 languages mashed together hence it's so confusing for non kanji background learners. I wouldn't pay too much attention to whether a word is kun or on. Just remember the word and the kanji and get on with it.

I would not only use flash cards but also write the reading and the character itself repeatedly to help remember. This is how schoolchildren learn. Unlike English, you can't just spell out a character, you need to write it.

Only if you have kanji background would I suggest remembering all the on readings in one go to greatly accelerate your vocab and then use kunyomi to assist in the understanding of a word.

Razahia · 7 Sep 2013

eeky said:
I once tried to learn kanji readings by rote, in isolation from their actual use as or in words, and it drove me nuts. It was like remembering meaningless random digits. I soon gave up. If you say you have a great memory then I suppose you may be able to stick it.
I did learn the basic meanings of all the joyo kanji by rote, and for me this has proved a huge benefit. However, it takes a long time, and even when you've finished you do have to keep refreshing your memory every so often, otherwise you forget.
I used to use physical flashcards, but a limitation is that they are always the same font, and you can get to rely on features that are not the same in other fonts. Therefore I now use an electronic system that gives me characters in a random font.

Can I ask what the system your using is?

eeky · 8 Sep 2013

Razahia said:
Can I ask what the system your using is?

It's self-written.

Razahia · 12 Sep 2013

eeky said:
It's self-written.

For some reason I can't find that system. Or do you mean you actually write it yourself?

eeky · 12 Sep 2013

Razahia said:
For some reason I can't find that system. Or do you mean you actually write it yourself?

Yes, that's what I meant. I wrote it myself.

Razahia · 14 Sep 2013

eeky said:
Yes, that's what I meant. I wrote it myself.

Ahhhh ok. I just don't have many different writing fonts =p.

SomeCallMeChris · 15 Sep 2013

On my Anki cards, I have a different font for each of the front side sentence, back side sentence, and back side vocabulary term in isolation. Plus my iPhone Anki is in another font. That's enough variation for me.

It's possible to script for a random font but I haven't done it, you might be able to find someone who has on the anki help forums.
Google can lead you to plenty of Japanese fonts, many of them in a handwritten (or hand-brushed) style if that's what you're looking for.

pauro12 · 15 Sep 2013

You should have incorporate it with words. Kun and On are yes, somewhat important, but for me; memorizing a character in a word which is mix with either other kanji or kana is still the best approach. Atleast, this is something effective for me.

Have I been learning kanji the right way?

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