Japanese fluency could ease visa conditions
Conditions for resident visa status of skilled foreign workers such as engineers may be relaxed if they attain a certain level of proficiency in Japanese, government sources said Monday.
The measures, including shortening the required number of years of work experience required, are being considered both to increase the variety of foreign workers being accepted in Japan and to encourage more foreigners to study Japanese, the sources said...
...The Foreign Ministry and Justice Ministry are considering shortening the number of years of work experience required to about five from 10, according to the sources...
...There is concern that relaxing conditions could lead to a decrease in the quality of workers, but if they have proficiency in Japanese they would be able to learn the relevant skills in Japan, the sources said...
Read the whole article
Sounds pretty selfish. You want others to remain ignorant for your own benefit?The other reason why I am against it is because I speak Japanese and English. I feel I am in a strong position because of it. If more people are able to speak Japanese I get more competition which is NOT GOOD for me.
Surely, you must be joking.ﾅ?ﾂｿﾅｽﾅ｡窶慊ｪ窶堋｢窶堋ｽ窶堋｢窶愿ｯ窶堋ｵ窶堋｢
HHmm... Do you live under a rock? How often in initial conversation do you see people in English speaking countries try to converse with someone in that persons language? How about never. Most Japanese will go out of there way to speak English to you b/c the majority of the gaijin here don't give a rats bottom about learning the language. And your comment about people grunting and waving arms is a dirrect result of foreigners not even attempting to learn the lauguage, so of corse most people are going to assume that your average gaijin will not be able to understand Japanese. Hense the problem that most of us face. And your assumptions just make a stronger case as to why people should have to speak Japanese when taking up residence here. I would have hoped that someone living here as long as you have could have realized the dim fact to why we are treated like we are.Oh no... not that one again.Why is it English speaking nations expect people to speak English when in our own countries, but expect people to provide English signs or be able to speak English in other countries not our own?I don't know anybody who thinks this. But it's true, in the UK I do speak to strangers initially only in English. That's better than just grunting or waving my arms about, which is how the Japanese often address me in Japan.Why is it English speaking nations expect people to speak English when in our own countriesExactly who expects this? Not even on this thread has such a sentiment been expressed.but expect people to provide English signs or be able to speak English in other countries not our own?
How often in initial conversation do you see people in English speaking countries try to converse with someone in that persons language?
Most English speaking people going on vacation in a foriegn country when entering a conversation with a local ,will inevitably speak English first
Special exception and not what is usually considered.OK, let's say that (in the UK) I've already heard a stranger speaking exclusively Japanese (for example.)
But how many times on average do Japanese stop to consider this? Rarely, IMO. Plenty (most?) think any non-Asian face belongs to an American unless they have some other indication, or unless they themselves have traveled abroad a bit.As for your point about it being 'our' own fault that we get grunted at in Japan; I'm sure you realise not all foreigners are English speakers, yet I'll think you'll find all nationalities experience the same problem in Japan.
And is this what you call "able to speak Japanese?"
Meaning, people who are not even here yet. So, you would actually NEED the experience and NEED the language ability to be able to compete, whereas presently a simple degree will do.
It's selfish to want a government's policies to follow your own personal wants. Laws are for the good of the country, not just a small selection of people, and if a language requirement would be beneficial overall, it shouldn't matter that you're afraid of a bit of competition. And if you are afraid of competition, find another way to stay on top.It is not selfish to have advantages over others in work and business. Everyone wants to have an advantage. Is it selfish to study harder to be better than anyone else? Ofcource not. You sound like a communist.
I can't fathom where you came up with that idea.It is even more selfish to force some people to learn a language. It is not up to the government but to the individual.
日本語じゃないの？完璧じゃん？
My beef is not with a language requirement in itself. I am first trying to say that most of the articles so far have said nothing clear about who is affected and how the testing will be done. I would hope you agree that such issues are critical to the people involved (foreigners), and that not knowing yet having this thrown up haphazardly only makes matters more stressful. I mean, look how long this thread is without any clearcut answers.Originally Posted by Glenski
Meaning, people who are not even here yet. So, you would actually NEED the experience and NEED the language ability to be able to compete, whereas presently a simple degree will do.
Just to clarify are you seeing this in a positive or negative light? Clearly, needing some language ability and experience is a reasonable requirement on Japan's part.
One point to make is that currently, people are allowed to get engineering visas (as one example of many) with no degree but only if they show 10 years of experience. Why 10? I don't know, and I suspect the MOJ can't clearly explain. Nonetheless, it's there. The proposed policy will let people in with half that experience. In itself, that's quite a relaxation in one's skill set, don't you think? Five years is barely getting one's feet wet in most careers, but with only that and some ill-defined language skill, you can now be seen as equally qualified to the current standards. Doesn't make sense to me.And, once again, the article talks about a vague "resident visa status" (something associated in my mind with people who are already residents here, not people who are just applying for their first work visa), and then they explain this carrot as follows: "The relaxed conditions would be applicable to foreigners who want to enter Japan for specialist or technical jobs". Meaning, people who are not even here yet. So, you would actually NEED the experience and NEED the language ability to be able to compete, whereas presently a simple degree will do.
What do you mean by this? Do you have a source to support that? I'm curious about the word difficult. Have fewer engineers, say, been graduating because of some kind of competition somewhere? I've seen quite a few IT engineers' resumes and heard quite a few of their stories about not having jobs so they switch to TEFL, but none have said anything about competition for the degrees themselves.Since degrees are increasingly difficult to obtain as competition increases
Oh, I see this POV, too, but I don't think you see my points. Please let me know if you do.I think it's pretty pro-active to start allowing foreigners with experience to work in Japan by rewarding their language efforts with a break on the number of years required.
My beef is not with a language requirement in itself. I am first trying to say that most of the articles so far have said nothing clear about who is affected and how the testing will be done. I would hope you agree that such issues are critical to the people involved (foreigners), and that not knowing yet having this thrown up haphazardly only makes matters more stressful. I mean, look how long this thread is without any clearcut answers.
Second, I believe the quote you made is slightly out of context.
One point to make is that currently, people are allowed to get engineering visas (as one example of many) with no degree but only if they show 10 years of experience. Why 10? I don't know, and I suspect the MOJ can't clearly explain. Nonetheless, it's there. The proposed policy will let people in with half that experience. In itself, that's quite a relaxation in one's skill set, don't you think? Five years is barely getting one's feet wet in most careers, but with only that and some ill-defined language skill, you can now be seen as equally qualified to the current standards. Doesn't make sense to me.
Another point I've tried to make here is that the MOJ keeps throwing up the term "long term resident" here. You cannot be a long-term resident anywhere when you just move in, and that is exactly what situation most people will be in. A newbie. So, how is it that the MOJ can boast that this policy is for long-term residents and in the same breath talk about entry requirements? Again, this is contradictory.
What do you mean by this? Do you have a source to support that? I'm curious about the word difficult. Have fewer engineers, say, been graduating because of some kind of competition somewhere? I've seen quite a few IT engineers' resumes and heard quite a few of their stories about not having jobs so they switch to TEFL, but none have said anything about competition for the degrees themselves.
Oh, I see this POV, too, but I don't think you see my points. Please let me know if you do.
Vagueness.
Premature announcements.
Contradictory statements.
They'd obviously have to make allowances for this. Japanese companies willingly subsidize English lessons so the same companies would naturally subsidize Japanese lessons for the few foreign employees they had. Further to this point, they're already immersed, I think within 1 year you could learn quite a bit. As for those seeking work, whether you spend 5 years working as an engineer and learning Japanese, or 10 years just doing engineering, you're working hard. Your implied expectation that relocating to a foreign country, learning the language and obtaining well-paying work should somehow be easy is kind of unrealistic.1) Learning a language like Japanese is not a piece of cake. In order to get up to speed on some basic conversation and perhaps reading proficiency will take at least a year. For some people, their work schedules and family life may stretch this. For those who don't learn languages easily, even more.
2) So, if you have 5 years of experience now, you will still have a few years to go before you can even make a stab at the language test. Will that study time cut into your experience gained?
3) If you don't yet have the 5 years, you will have to deal with earning those five and studying a language, too. Could be tougher, not "easier".
4) I can't stress strongly enough the point above about how many degreed people vs. non-degreed actually manage to find work here. It would behoove the MOJ to throw out a few figures along those lines as justification. Otherwise, logic dictates that the degreed people are more suited to the jobs in general.
That is the mentality I am talking about, we (English speaking countries ) assume that because English is the language that is relied upon in the world stage that most people will be able to speak it regardless of their background. Like I said before, Japan is not an English speaking country and the majority of foreigners DO NOT speak Japanese to at least carry out a basic conversation. And let me pose a question to you, what percentage of people in English speaking countries can speak another language? Now ask yourself what percentage of non English speaking countries can speak English? Of corse the percentage is much,much higher in non English speaking countries.OK, let's say that (in the UK) I've already heard a stranger speaking exclusively Japanese (for example.) Even though I can speak 'reasonable' Japanese, I would do that person the honour of demonstrating their superior language skills, rather than assuming they can't speak English. If it turned out that Japanese was the better option, then I'd switch to Japanese.And if I really don't have any hard evidence about their native language, I have no choice but to communicate in natural English or condescending sign language. Which is better?
Like I said before, I talk about the majority and the fact of the matter is that the majority of foreigners that are European or african in appearance are from English speaking countries, which brings me back to my first parragraph that because English is now considered the language of the world it is then assumed that if all else fails the common ground is that two foreign people can converse in English( Again this is generally the case ). And BTW you speak of your friends not being like this, but how can you judge what the rest of the world of millions/billions is thinking from that small group of people in your imediate pressence? Again don't you think this is not thinking realisticaly?As for your point about it being 'our' own fault that we get grunted at in Japan; I'm sure you realise not all foreigners are English speakers, yet I'll think you'll find all nationalities experience the same problem in Japan.
I agree there are many ignorant native-English tourists. It just seems that none of my friends/family has been ignorant enough to assume that everyone abroad can speak English. So I think you generalize far too much, or rely on stereotypes in sitcoms.
With a tour rep, tourist resort hotel clerk maybe. But with a shopkeeper in a village in France? Sorry, I'm afraid I think you're relying on stereotypes. (Notice I didn't accuse you of being ignorant, easily confused, short-sighted or living under a rock though.)
I won't say every foreign person I have met, but the majority that say they can speak Japanese fluently would have trouble conversing with a 4 year old. The problem is that people judge there own or others Japanese abililty on what they perceive to be competent, when the reality is they are in fact seen as someone who can not speak very well at all and be difficult to understand. This is especially the case when the person themself is not fluent in Japanese. But even if you and your friends are competent it still does not give the correct reprsentation of the fact that most "oubeijin, 窶ｰﾂ｢窶｢ﾃ?人" come and go without learning Japanese, again you speak of a minority ,which as I said before is not a correct assumption on the reality of the situation.EDIT: I must hang out with an entirely different crowd in Japan than you do. Everyone non-J in my company is studying or can speak Japanese, and nobody seems to expect Japanese to speak English. And the ex-pats I've met in western Tokyo have been all but fluent. And even when I go to 'western' bars in Roppongi, Ebisu etc I've only met a few who've told me they know no Japanese at all.
You're probably right. Stupidity is also involved, as is a dinosaur-like mentality.Fair enough, but I just don't think the vagueness is as engineered or nefarious as some believe it is.
Quality is not a qualification. Just the length of time you put into it.If you really pressed them I'm sure the MOFA would point to some international standard or come up with a good reason why its 10 years. It doesn't really matter, that's the standard. And that's with NO language skills and no formal training. So really all they're saying is you have to be a damn good self-taught engineer to get work in Japan
Please stop and ask yourself, as I have been trying, just how many of these people get in vs. the degreed ones? Until either of us see some data, I'm going to assume it's like teachers: most have degrees.Now, with this change, if you have some Japanese language skills you get a break. This is, I think, aimed at increasing the ability for engineers (or other professionals who'll be included here) to integrate.
Speculation. No offense. Personally, I'd like to see their "vision" in writing.I think they're trying to envision a system that applies to those entering whose intention it is to become a long term resident.
The MOJ is not known for its fair treatment of foreigners, nor intelligence. I'm not holding my breath on this one.I see your point and you're right, the ideas are contradictory, but the chances that they're pulling some kind of weird 'know Japanese before you come here or else' stuff is unlikely as it would harm more than hurt.
"May". Again, just speculation. Do you have any support for the number of degrees going down?So my point in saying Japan is being pro-active was linked to the idea that there may be fewer people with degrees and more people with just skilled trades or simple work experience showing up.
Companies may indeed do this a lot. This is not the case in most teaching positions, and in fact to this point, Japanese is not permitted in the classroom in most cases anyway. Hence, no real perceived need. Plus, what employers may "have to do" isn't always what they end up doing.They'd obviously have to make allowances for this. Japanese companies willingly subsidize English lessons so the same companies would naturally subsidize Japanese lessons for the few foreign employees they had.
Have you tried it under conditions here?Further to this point, they're already immersed, I think within 1 year you could learn quite a bit.
Where did I imply that?Your implied expectation that relocating to a foreign country, learning the language and obtaining well-paying work should somehow be easy is kind of unrealistic.
Half full or half empty?You're right, they are more suited, the others are less suited. Again, regardless of the numbers being well-researched or arbitrary, they just made it easier for some people to go work in Japan by slashing the requirement in half. Perhaps some already know Japanese and this just opened up a huge door for them. Let's just say 'the glass is at 50%' until we know more.
Have you tried it under conditions here?
Where did I imply that?
Just reading this, I don't know just what your level is, so it is difficult to comment on it. Thanks for the description, though.Did it last year. My spoken language skills were and still are very rudimentary; although my listening isn't bad and I know OF much grammar I cannot effectively use all of it in in speech yet. My literacy isn't too bad though although writing and physical penning of kanji is tough, I understand even some Japanese struggle with it, but thats another story.
Where is the blog?Check my blog, it's rough but its the culmination of my literacy after a year and a half of studying.
Well, I've tried a couple of those in 2 cities. Total unadulterated crap in both cases.and still had tmie to go to my class once a week and study. It was a free-of-charge class at the local ward center run by volunteers, really nice people but probably not as intense as something company sponsored or paid for.
"Something" is what any sensible person would expect, and I'm not belittling what you have accomplished, just saying that again this is fairly undefined. Keep up the studies, though! I know how hard it is.With a little effort I went from having zero language to having at least something within the span of a year and a bit.
Ok, I'll have to correct you. I'm not going to look back on the pages here, and I've also posted my feelings on other threads here and elsewhere, so I don't know if I've made myself clear. Language requirements are good. Just what those requirements are, I can't say. I got in without any and am thankful, but I'm not stupid or naive enough to say that things should remain that way. I'm only saying 2 things:For the moment I think we both reasonably agree, however we look at the glass, that information is thin. Yet you remain noticeably critical, I get the impression that the language requirement issue is unreasonable in your eyes no matter what form it takes. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just going by the aftertaste of your posts.
Thanks. Have no time at present, but will look into it.Above my user rating bars there's a thing that says 'Blog Entries: 6'. If you click on the little 6, which is how many I've created at the time of this post, it'll take you to my blog.
I wouldn't denigrate the feeling with the word "simply". Yes, having a p!ss-poor news item irritates me.So if I understand this correctly, you're simply upset at the fact that the MOJ put the bulletin out without having clearly defined objectives?
I am trying to remain calm, but what gets me even as much as the above is, people who post on forums with little or no idea what is happening here, people who pooh-pooh it all with no clear logical reason, and people who say "if you don't like it, leave".I don't know that I'd get as fired up about it however, since there is no smoking gun yet that would indicate any harm done to the status of foreigners.
Hard to say. Why did the new fingerprinting policy start despite a huge battle lasting more than a decade to eliminate it? Why does the government look the other way on enacting laws against discrimination? Why does the government ignore illegal actions by most dispatch agencies for teachers, thereby reducing the quality of education, yet at the same time they promote claims that the feds are actually trying to improve it? And, even so, why can't the government stay with one concept of how to improve English education here? [example: Koizumi's administration was finally set to impose mandatory English in elementary school, then Abe nixed that. Now we are in limbo. SOMEONE had it figured out in Koizumi's time, yet the "old boy network" in power after him brushed away that rationale.] (These are rhetorical questions, so please don't answer.)Within the vagueness, it's the direction of the policy (as perceived by you) that must be the thing creating the controversy. What direction do you really see this going in?
I really don't think we can say that there is any assurance of anything right now. If they truly wanted to make that point clear for long-term integration (something they are blatantly opposed to, you realize), then they would have spelled things out clearer, done more research [even the little ramblings you see on discussion forums took just a handful of synapses to calculate], and they would have at least TRIED to show some sincerity in the whole situation. I'm not crying doomsday here, but look at the record. It just doesn't support that view.Because as I've mentioned, I just see this as basically ensuring no one lives in Japan for too long without integrating at a basic level language-wise and I find that reasonable. I don't smell a doomsday scenario looming for foreigners entering Japan, not on this front anyhow.
....
So, basically, anyone that isn't prepared to fully adjust to a foreign country has no business living there in my opinion. If Japanese becomes too hard, stop whining and try for a European culture. ☝
Sushi chefs need IELTS 5.5 or better in the UK now...
In a way, the French system is fairer in which the government orders you to study French there.
It is difficult to tell what the J system will be like right now, but if the system is something like... your visa would be issued more quickly after you get JLPT 1 kyu or 2 kyu, it will be easy to find a bit strange persons who cannot understand any Japanese at the immigration.
I know JLPT is the typical Japanese test without any speaking or writing tests, so first the government should conduct the test like IELTS. (No need to be as expensive as it, though)
Because Japanese people do not tend to expect gaijin to learn Japanese. I do not disagree that they should expect it, but culturally that is not not the reality for what I have seen in Japan that is why. I did learn a lot while I was in Japan. I did not know that Japan had a homeless problem and NEETs that are unmotivated to work. I used to think that all Japanese people were hard workers, and they had too much pride to be homeless. When I went there, my eyes were opened up for the first time.Why is it a shock to learn that any country would expect its immigrants to learn the local language? ANY country!