- 30 Apr 2007
- 1,173
- 84
so whats the big stink about then?
so whats the big stink about then?There IS no policy defined.
Just remember to thank and heartily appreciate the natives that are willing to put forth what can be a tremendous effort on their part to do your English for you. Cause no one has ANY obligation whatsoever to rescue a foreigner that isn't even trying.OK OK,
I got you, Hypothetically speaking then, If the policy, low, whatever term I should use, is/will be implemented/defined/finilized, we would have had this discussion, since nothing has been defined, we should forget that this conversation has ever took place.
I hope I have been specific enough.
Have a great day/night
Peace to you and all
And you think that most Japanese are comfortable speaking at this level of nuance in English ??One difficulty is in the honorifics vs. polite forms vs. casual forms. Another lies in how certain things are spoken, depending on who is the target. (Talk about yourself, the person you are with, or someone not around, and you might have to use different grammar, for example.)
I learned once that you are considered "fluent"/proficient in a language if you can conduct your daily business in a foreign country without the basic aid of a translator.kireikoori said:Just how good does my Japanese have to be for a "long stay"?
Just remember to thank and heartily appreciate the natives that are willing to put forth what can be a tremendous effort on their part to do your English for you. Cause no one has ANY obligation whatsoever to rescue a foreigner that isn't even trying.
No, not again...not another misunderstanding.THANKS THEN!!!!
If it has been incredibly difficult for you to understand my post due to my basic understanding of the English language I apologize.
Thanks again for your effort to try to understand my incomprehesible English written expression.
With the hope that in the future my written English will improve.
Peace to all
This is just foreign hysteria gone amok (as usual)
You're joking, right?so whats the big stink about then?
You lost me. There is hardly any level of "nuance" like that in English, and the point is lost because at least the Japanese get 6 years of mandatory grammar lessons.Quote:One difficulty is in the honorifics vs. polite forms vs. casual forms. Another lies in how certain things are spoken, depending on who is the target. (Talk about yourself, the person you are with, or someone not around, and you might have to use different grammar, for example.)
And you think that most Japanese are comfortable speaking at this level of nuance in English ??
There is nothing in all the articles nor in the history of immigration to support that. You are taking the MOJ bait by furthering the discussion.Japan is not simply going to kick out long term foreigners/residents if they hold a responsible job and/or have a Japanese spouse and children (regardless of whether they can speak any Japanese at all).
Hello! We don't know what to expect on the test. Have you seen otherwise?Also, they will not simply deport single foreigners if they understand the basics of Japanese and can otherwise get on with their lives by simply going to the post office, shopping, travelling, asking for directions, get basic medical care, talk to the police in times of emergency, etc. on their own.
Again, the MOJ is unclear what they want at this point.Nowhere did I get the impression that the government was demanding, or the story insisting, that a person be fluent or near native speaker level.
You are contradicting yourself. Didn't you just write this?If, however, you are a long-term single resident of Japan and cannot do the basics without a translator, then you should be denied an extension of your visa based on your ignorance and stupidity as, if you cannot even learn the basics of the country you plan on living in long-term, then you will be nothing but a burdon to society in general and probably can not add much to the country you are living in other than demand that they change to suit your needs.
I'm even more confused now. So we are supposed to buy the argument that not able to distinguish similar relatively subtle and sophisticated usages is a reasonable excuse for not initiating a learning process at all ?You lost me. There is hardly any level of "nuance" like that in English, and the point is lost because at least the Japanese get 6 years of mandatory grammar lessons.
The point I was trying to make, supported by someone else here, is this. Try things like yotee vs. tsumori just as one example. One has to remember how to use this "nuance" because it's not as straightforward as the pronouns in English usage.
oops.No, not again...not another misunderstanding.My reminder was for anyone harboring such an ambivilance towards their Japanese life that it is allowed it to spill over into a mistreatment of the locals.
In case you weren't aware, your posts, thatsme, are a pure joy to read. They are so inspiring in fact I really do want to become like you someday.
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. I will repeat again, I believe if you have a Japanese spouse or hold a "responsible job" (whatever that may be classified as) and cannot speak Japanese and thus have a difficult time getting on with your daily life by not being able to conduct your daily business in Japanese, than you will probably not be deported or denied an extension of your visa if it ever comes to that (which I doubt).Glenski said:Quote:If, however, you are a long-term single resident of Japan and cannot do the basics without a translator, then you should be denied an extension of your visa based on your ignorance and stupidity as, if you cannot even learn the basics of the country you plan on living in long-term, then you will be nothing but a burdon to society in general and probably can not add much to the country you are living in other than demand that they change to suit your needs.You are contradicting yourself. Didn't you just write this?
Japan is not simply going to kick out long term foreigners/residents if they hold a responsible job and/or have a Japanese spouse and children (regardless of whether they can speak any Japanese at all)
There was discussion in the Japanese article of a "6 point system" used by Canada that weights language ability, proportional to other factors, as submitted in a personal history statement at the time of a work visa application for permanent residency. Language learning is also heavily considered in Britain, Germany and France. Be enterprising and look up the details yourself because this is the most plausible framework I have come across yet for modeling a uniquely Japanese policy.There is nothing in all the articles nor in the history of immigration to support that. You are taking the MOJ bait by furthering the discussion.
However, I still hold to my belief that if you live there and want to remain there, one should at least take the time and effort to study the basics of the language and culture.
I agree. If for no other reason than to enrich one's own experience while abroad. You get out of it what you put into it as the saying goes.
You're trying to read the MOJ's mind. Ok, let's see about the next hypothetical. A person on spouse visa or PR thinks he doesn't have to learn much Japanese, that he can just coast on the system, and that he can make easy money here doing whatever. See? It's not so easy to classify. The MOJ is not going to consider this. They can't. People will lie.Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. I will repeat again, I believe if you have a Japanese spouse or hold a "responsible job" (whatever that may be classified as) and cannot speak Japanese and thus have a difficult time getting on with your daily life by not being able to conduct your daily business in Japanese, than you will probably not be deported or denied an extension of your visa if it ever comes to that (which I doubt).
On the other hand, if you are just a run-of-the-mill English teacher, single (or have a foreign spouse), care not about the language or country/culture and just want to stay there because it's "easy money" then you, if it comes to that extreme, may well be denied an extension and rightly so.
Exactly what I have been saying. We just don't know.Will it ever come to this for any and all foreigners? I think not, but you never know what the Japanese government will do.
Help me out here, Elizabeth. What sort of people does this talk about in Japan? Permanent resident status holders? Work visa holders? Who?There was discussion in the Japanese article of a "6 point system" used by Canada that weights language ability, proportional to other factors, as submitted in a personal history statement at the time of a work visa application for permanent residency. Language learning is also heavily considered in Britain, Germany and France. Be enterprising and look up the details yourself because this is the most plausible framework I have come across yet for modeling a uniquely Japanese policy.
Agreed, no matter who is involved in the testing. It's a stick, not a carrot.I don't believe that anyone disagrees with this. The problem lies in the possibility that long-term residents may be forced into learning the language and taking some sort of test proving same in order to stay. As I said from the beginning, this seems to be antagonistic.
As it stands, it is a trial balloon and there are no specifics. The devil is in the details, should the government decides to pursue this.
All I can repeat is word for word what the article states as the information orochi, epigene and myself have already indicated -- which is that at various points the focus shifts from foreigners "staying long-term" to a more general "development/integration campaign" to get those on a work visa, students etc interested in the language and finally back to "long term residents" and workers again (drawn from the Canadian scheme).Help me out here, Elizabeth. What sort of people does this talk about in Japan? Permanent resident status holders? Work visa holders? Who?
I am not the one who needs to be enterprising here. Because the article chose to discuss this point only in Japanese, it irks me. How are the people who cannot read Japanese (in other words, the ones who are potentially going to be tested) supposed to be fully informed? This is one of the points I made earlier. Incomplete translation for the sake of the people affected.
And, as I have written, this is too vague especially with the next info below.All I can repeat is word for word what the article states as the information orochi, epigene and myself have already indicated -- which is that at various points the focus shifts from foreigners "staying long-term" to a more general "development/integration campaign" to get those on a work visa, students etc interested in the language and finally back to "long term residents" and workers again (drawn from the Canadian scheme).
Total B.S. or a horrible description by the MOJ and/or newspaper. (both of which I have already stated) It's B.S. because if you try to apply this description to all visa holders as you, epigene, orochi, etc. have suggested it means, then it's impossible to do. Simply put, nobody knows they are going to be a long-term resident upon their initial entry.Only the first sentence provides a specific link to the agenda the MOJ/MOFA study is set to undertake.
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窶愿ｺ窶怒窶堙俄?卍ｷﾅ?ﾃｺ窶佚伉催昶?堋ｷ窶堙ｩﾅ?Oﾂ坂?伉人窶堙娯?愿ｼﾂ坂?倪?堙｢ﾂ催昶?板ｯ窶ｹ窶凪?ｰﾃつ審ﾂ債ｸ窶堙個催崢、(Foreigners staying long-term in Japan would presumably be tested at the time of entry
What status? The article and you three people's interpretation is so wide-ranging and indiscriminate that there is no clear status.(that's the "landing examination" -- obviously they are not applying for that status initially,
Nope. Doesn't wash. A regular work visa holder on his first day does not know if he is a long-term resident. More than 90% of foreigners in Japan go home in 3 years.so perhaps a test administered uniformly across all visa holders??)
Made up? Wonderful journalism if by the press, and even more B.S. if made up by the MOJ. Why are you people still insisting that even the Japanese translation has merit now?and again as part of the Residency Approval examination ?? --> ! Not to worry if it doesn't ring a bell term, this is I think either made up by the writer or MOJ/MOFA.
Oh, swell. Many work visas are only issued for one year. Even the official "long-term resident visa" can be issued for only 6 months. The B.S., ambiguities, and loopholes are piled so high you can see Mt. Fuji from them.ﾂ催昶?板ｯﾅ?ﾃｺﾅ?ﾃ披?堙個更ﾂ新ﾂ、ﾅｽ窶佛?i窶｢ﾃ渉更ﾅｽﾅｾ (Long term residents would be tested again for "improvement" in Japanese skills at the time of visa renewal or changes in status ??).
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The B.S., ambiguities, and loopholes are piled so high you can see Mt. Fuji from them.
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Yes, exactly. One possibility is that visa holders (excluding tourist, student etc). be routinely pre-tested and for those that don't end up appying for a long-term residency permit or getting a visa renewal -- whatever the status or criteria is set as -- no further follow-up examination is required. It isn't saying they are "long-term" at the time of entry. That would be absurd.Total B.S. or a horrible description by the MOJ and/or newspaper. (both of which I have already stated) It's B.S. because if you try to apply this description to all visa holders as you, epigene, orochi, etc. have suggested it means, then it's impossible to do. Simply put, nobody knows they are going to be a long-term resident upon their initial entry.
Long term residency permit review process/exam could be referring to the test or a new class of measures or something already in place I'm not familiar with.Made up? Wonderful journalism if by the press, and even more B.S. if made up by the MOJ. Why are you people still insisting that even the Japanese translation has merit now?