Gazza Massacre.....

[Yan]

You are out topic,read the subject first...And if you want to start another topic about islam or anything else you can post a new topic for that and i can answer you.
Dont misunderstand Islam,I am sure you heared that in the western media witch belong to jewish owners.
back to topic:
1-Palestenian people have the right to defind them selves,the ground is belong to them.
2-everyday israelian tanks attack the palestinian people and make a big mess..
3-if we count the israelian crimes or if we could count them,we will find that israel is one of the biggest criminal systems all over the world.
4-Israel has nuclear weapons while palestinian have not even one tank !
5-6-7..etc etc...
It's very clear and All people around the world protected against israel.
the one who should be called terrorist is Israel and anyone support it like USA and some European Governments.
Do you think that All palestinian poeple are terrorists ? okay they Elected Hamas !
You have to be honest.

I don't know how you can say that the only one who can be called terrorist is Israel while a terrorist organization has been elected by a majority of people in one of the most extremist zone of the world (Gazza strip).

I invite you to watch this video to know a bit more about Hamas:

 

[Hezam]

Yan,the video is made by israelian i think..but though it shows israel's tanks killing people and fire....Hamas and Palestinian have the right to protect them selves.
If we keep posting youtube links so see this :


Why Palestinian victems are not counted ??????
I wonder when some people still confused !!!

Yan,can you please read more about that issue.
regards.

 

[hideway]

When one of the sides uses civilians as shields something very wrong is bound to happen.

 

[Hezam]

WE offer israel the peace but they refused,What we should do is force them to get out of palestine,this thing called israel has no right to live in Palestine.
God ! we always say "Live in peace with us or return from where you came from"...
Is what i said wrong ?
More than 60 years and palestinian people under this killers fire ! How do someone call them PEOPLE !!

Anyway,it's not your counry wich occupied so you dont care wether true or wrong we are.

Thanks.

 

[hideway]

Weren't you from Yemen?

Besides, Israel claims that it is at war with Hamas, not Palestine. Peace treaties and cease fires sound kinda false when one side keeps firing rockets at the other. Specially after that other refrained from retaliating for weeks long.

This conflict isn't going to end by force, about time some people figure that out.

 

[Hezam]

you still talking about the small rockets ! What about the Tanks missiles,Helicopter Shells,Bulldozers,Napalm bomb,Israel use them everyday everytime wether palestinians stoped throwing Stones or firing small rockes....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dont forget the Israelian Nuclear weapons...

 

[hideway]

One has to remember how all this mess began in the fist place. The very fact that something that happened a few months ago, and that WAS the cause of all this, is discarted as old news and therefore irrelevant, is the main reason why this conflict is still on after all these decades.

Israel ceased fire for weeks, not retaliating against either rockets or bombings, extending it's arm for real peace talks. All Hamas did was to continue firing rockets and provoke them verbally. Hamas this time has obviously filled too much the Israel's bag. It broke.

Besides, with Hamas using hospitals and schools as bases or setting offices next to them, and with using children as human shields, how would you defeat them? If you send a missile, an helicopter attack or anything close, you'll have videos of the horrible massacre Israel did on children! Using them that way is disgusting and inhuman.

Not to say that Israel is NOT at war with Palestine, do you see any tanks rolling on the West Bank? Any air bombings? Napalm? Hamas should stop being extremist and start acting a bit more like Fatah.

And don't get me wrong, the Israelis is far from being angels. I for example am against the West Bank Barrier, but when you see that they managed about 95% of decrease on terror attacks after they started building it, one has to ask himself if such results do not justify the means.

 

[Hezam]

Besides, with Hamas using hospitals and schools as bases or setting offices next to them, and with using children as human shields

Who told you that ?! or you belive what Israel says ?
They were bombing all Gazza not only schools or hospitals.ensureplease.

In West Bank,Israeli Bulldozers Sweep the farms many times and as you see now they warn palestinian in AlQuds to leave their houses and farms ! It's that Fatah gave up.

 

[Yan]

Well, I know you're living inside of an islamic country and you're probably Muslim (or you are not safe in Saudi Arabia) but I personally prefer to believe in the Canadian informations than in the propaganda from your islamic regime. What you hear on TV about Israel is certainely not as true as it actually is because the islamic medias prefer to compare Jews with pigs than Hamas soldiers with terrorism.
I think I am more informed about the issue of this conflict than you because you're constantly living inside the islamic propaganda. I'm not a pro-Jew. I know that the sionism regime isn't better than the islamic regime (same as any other religious regime) but I know that we can't accuse only one side. The statistics show that the muslim community inside Palestine is very agressive against the Jews by the simple fact that they're Jews. It is certainely not a good reason to kill all of them and I don't want them to be killed by the israelis. But if they continue to support a terrorist ideology, I won't support them.
In one side we have a group of suicide bombers who are ready to explose in the downtown of Jerusalem and on the other side, we have a zionist group who wants to eliminate Palestinians. But for the moment, the israeli government is not considered as a terrorist organization, they just attack the Gaza Strip to stop the Hamas regime. And the Hamas soldiers use the Palestinian population as a shield because they understood that their only chance to impose their terrorist ideology is to blame Israeli soldiers for the innocent deaths that Israelis killed by mistake because of the Hamas soldiers.

 

[Hezam]

aha,you are more informed than me becasue you live so far from here ! Strange !!
you have no idea about Palestin history.
I can not belive what you just said !

 

[hideway]

For the sake of making myself more clear, I'm posting here an answer I gave on a mail exchange about this very topic.

(...)

One has to acknowledge what went wrong and that originated this all mess, and that is where the finger pointing begins. Yes, I'm aware that Israelis continue to push ground with their colonates on West Bank, and that is inexcusable, both in international law and the affect it is having on the Palestinians. No one should be thrown out of home and be deprived from their own land. I'm also aware that Israelis no longer care about Palestinian's causalities.

But one has to understand all sides's point of view. I basically divide the whole thing in three groups: The Israelis, the Hamas and the Fatah. Both Israel and the Fatah are trying to reach an understanding of the situation, stop the Palestinians extremist and allow the creation of a Palestinian state. Hamas on the other hand tried to overthrown Fatah after they won the elections, bragged about their rockets launched at Israel and refused to accept Israel in the region vowing to destroy them.

They also have a known history of shielding themselves with civilians so that they can show their corpse after that if something happens. The insinuation that they launch rockets and then go home, as if they weren't organized or didn't houses that served as meeting/organization/storage support points is ridiculous to say the least.

Did Israel did wrong when they mass bombed the Gaza strip to oblivion? On the past I used to say yes promptly. But right and wrong tend to blur as you understand each of the conflict's sides. And I've so say I hardly sense any sympathy for Hamas. If they stopped being extremists about four or five years ago, at the time Israel evacuated by force all colonates from the gaza strip and some out of the north of the west bank, this whole mess would have never happen in the first place.

Israel just had enough of this and raged on Hamas, hitting everything that reassembled, even if slightly and unconfirmed, to an Hamas target. They decided to go all in against these guys to try to cripple them once and for all and stop their madness. The result wasn't pretty, but at the end, by listening to all parts, it seemed effective.

Emotional videos of kids being killed and families scared the hell out of their minds can hardly make me rethink the whole thing because I already acknowledge that this happens EVERY SINGLE day on both sides, and the only way to stop this isn't by finger pointing alone, but by trying to reach an understanding and the creation of a Palestinian state, something that at this time, only Hamas was against.

Sorry about the long answer.

BR,
-hideway

 

[Hezam]

Thanks hidway for the good answer,

I already acknowledge that this happens EVERY SINGLE day on both sides

Not both sides,it happens one time per month or per 3 months on israel side But it happns everyday on Palestine side.

On top of that,why dont israel accept the The Arab peace initiative ?
Hamas is doing what they should do,No give up.

 

[Yan]

Thanks hidway for the good answer,
Not both sides,it happens one time per month or per 3 months on israel side But it happns everyday on Palestine side.
On top of that,why dont israel accept the The Arab peace initiative ?
Hamas is doing what they should do,No give up.

Well, maybe that's because there's no peace initiative from Hamas. They already tried many times to make peace but Hamas always uses that free time to attack Israel.

 

[Hezam]

this Not true at all.

 

[Yan]

this Not true at all.

And what's the argument?

 

[Hezam]

the argument !!
How could you Justify what the Thief do ?
the ground is Not for those jewish who came from many places around the world.
and they kept killing palestinians since 60 years ago,and you still say the owner of the ground doesnt want the peace !!

How strange !

i will ask you one question even if it does not help the Damn peace they talking about,
What if someon occupyed your house with his family and killed your sons and Arrested your wife and he want you to accept him to live with you,What will you do Tell me ?

in my opinion,one rocket on his head won't be enough.

 

[Yan]

the argument !!
How could you Justify what the Thief do ?
the ground is Not for those jewish who came from many places around the world.
and they kept killing palestinians since 60 years ago,and you still say the owner of the ground doesnt want the peace !!
How strange !
i will ask you one question even if it does not help the Damn peace they talking about,
What if someon occupyed your house with his family and killed your sons and Arrested your wife and he want you to accept him to live with you,What will you do Tell me ?
in my opinion,one rocket on his head won't be enough.

I wouldn't agree about it but nothing justifies to attack them with a rocket. Plus, I thought it was the fault of Americans. They are the ones who decided to create the Jewish state, no?

Still, how can you justify what the terrorists do (I'm talking about those who suicide themselves with a bomb to make as much victims as possible)?

 

[Hezam]

but nothing justifies to attack them with a rocket

lol haha,okay you have the point here.

Still, how can you justify what the terrorists do (I'm talking about those who suicide themselves with a bomb to make as much victims as possible)?

You and me are not victims of israel fire,so we can not feel like the palestinians people who lose their families,if i lose my family of course i will dare to suicide my self like they do.
Although i agree with you if we are talking about the Israeli Civilian not the solders.

If it comes to whose fault is it,It's Brittain's fault for creating israel and USA for supporting israel and the list will be too long but this won't help it.

What we want is the peace,could anyone tell me one peace initiative from Israel ?
We offered them Peace many many times but they refused and they still refuse the peace.

What should we do while USA and some European countries support israel ?

Thanks Yan for your honest answer.

 

[Yan]

lol haha,okay you have the point here.
You and me are not victims of israel fire,so we can not feel like the palestinians people who lose their families,if i lose my family of course i will dare to suicide my self like they do.
Although i agree with you if we are talking about the Israeli Civilian not the solders.
If it comes to whose fault is it,It's Brittain's fault for creating israel and USA for supporting israel and the list will be too long but this won't help it.
What we want is the peace,could anyone tell me one peace initiative from Israel ?
We offered them Peace many many times but they refused and they still refuse the peace.
What should we do while USA and some European countries support israel ?
Thanks Yan for your honest answer.

Well, I think it is hard for Israel to accept peace from Palestinians while they believe that Israel shouldn't exist.

I'm living in Quebec, Canada. Here in Quebec, we have been colonised by French people. In 1760, the English conquered our territories and forced us to speak English. Our first reaction was to fight with them using all the weapons we have in our possession. But the English canadians had a big army with strong weapons while we were a low number of people who'd just been stolen our territories by English. Later, we understood than taking weapons to solve our problems wasn't the solution. So we began to negociate with English people but we first needed to accept the Canadian state instead of attacking them like terrorists (they were stronger than us).

Now in 2009, we have our own province with our own civil laws. We also have our own government, our own rules and our own official language (we are living in the only province who has another official language than English). Some of us are still angry to be governed by English people, and the most extremists of them want to use weapons for it. Personally, I prefer to live in Canada. Instead of living in a poor country with a ridiculous army, I prefer to live inside Canada and being governed by a group of people who don't speak the same language than me and also don't have the same religion than me.

I think that Palestinians will never succeed to be respected if they don't accept the state of Israel first.

Thanks, I've always been honest. I have my own opinion about this subject because we lived the exact same thing in the history of my nation.

 

[Mars Man]

The details of the more recent events leading to the creation of this thread I know next to nothing about, but the general mess in that corner of the earth I am fairly familiar with--it's been going on in one way or another, between these or those parties for a good long time (and I'm talking thousands of years).

The USA and UK seemed to have not waited for some final input from at least one major voice in the area, Saudia Arabia (if my memory serves me well), yet once it had been decided to build an Israeli political state, it would have been an act of great altruism to allow them to move in, in peace . . . even with the minimum cost involved in giving up land and homestead then. A hard thing to do, perhaps, but most of those of that area of the same genetic family linage.

What is really needed now, is education. Education that broadens the minds of people, frees them from the needless mental baggage that draws power from a narrow in-group psychology, and helps them have a greater vision of the natural path of life forms on earth. I, however, would not expect any great changes anytime soon, so . . .

 

[hideway]

Actually comparing Israel/Palestine with England/Canada is nonsense. The realities are too different.

Thanks hidway for the good answer,
Not both sides,it happens one time per month or per 3 months on israel side But it happns everyday on Palestine side.

Maybe not today, but on the days of the second intifada it was a common scene. Israel did everything that it could to protect itself.

On top of that,why dont israel accept the The Arab peace initiative ?
Hamas is doing what they should do,No give up.

Give up what? The peace process? The Palestinian State? Or the control over the gaza's strip that they overthrown?

And the Arab peace Initiative is a false one. They intentionally forgot to put in there the recognition of the Israeli State. Why would Israel sign such a treaty?

lol haha,okay you have the point here.
You and me are not victims of israel fire,so we can not feel like the palestinians people who lose their families,if i lose my family of course i will dare to suicide my self like they do.
Although i agree with you if we are talking about the Israeli Civilian not the solders.

That's horrible really. What good will it make to everyone's else involved other than satisfy your own revenge lust? You do that and the next Israeli to have a family member killed by you will be the one on the next wave of attacks against Palestinians.

That's the reason why this mess came this far and why Hamas uses human shields and provokes Israel by performing suicide bombings and rocket launching during cease fires, they want this to continue as it is their only way to glitch to power. As soon as the violence got smaller on the West Bank and the Fatah won the elections there, just look at what the Hamas did.

If it comes to whose fault is it,It's Brittain's fault for creating israel and USA for supporting israel and the list will be too long but this won't help it.

What we want is the peace,could anyone tell me one peace initiative from Israel ?
We offered them Peace many many times but they refused and they still refuse the peace.

That's complete nonsense and a incredible lie.

Later on the same year the UK left the control of the region (a couple of years after the second world war), the U.N. voted for the creation of the Israel state. The response from the Arab side was full war. Every single Arab country voted Israel and that attitude led to the 1948 war.

Later, on 1967 Egypt used false pretences to force U.N. out of the region and prepared to attack Israel in what you might have heard it as the six day war. The problems raised by that war still echo nowdays.

Until today, any peace prospect is blocked by either the refusal to recognize Israel as a rightful country or by terrorist acts such as the ones perpretated by Hamas.

How in earth can you blame the UK for all this? You all had 60 years to deal with it, it is YOUR own fault you are still in this mess.

What should we do while USA and some European countries support israel ?

How about peace? How about dialog? How about stopping bombings and rockets? How about trying to live in peace with Israel?

And I've been wondering, you say "we" as the people in the region, as an Arab or as a muslin?

 

[Mars Man]

For whatever worth it may be, to whatever degree of consultation there may be in it, I would hope that we could all take at least a slightly more dignified way of presenting our positions. . . you see, . . . that was to have been the whole idea behind this Serious Discussions sub-forum anyway--to discuss seriously.

 

[Hezam]

it sounds like some poeple dont understand the issue.
anyway,the one who decide the fate of this reagion is the people who live there.
As you see the new israeli government is very bad and bloodthirsty.
Who know what will happen in the near future.

 

[hideway]

Why don't you explain the issue to me?

 

[hideway]

For some reason the Hamas propaganda is starting to convincing me.

Here is the last Hamas reaction to President Obama speech:
CNN Video Experience | CNN