Function of と

Yoshie · 18 Dec 2015

Could somebody please explain me the usage of と in the following sentence. It's a bit of vague for me, maybe it is conditional?

カフェインを摂取したいんなら自販機で買ってこい。うちの学校の自販機は一杯五十円とリーズナブルだぞ。

Context: Speaker was invited to go drink for a coffee after school, however he didn't want to go anywhere, and that's what he answered.

mdchachi · 18 Dec 2015

Yoshie said:
Could somebody please explain me the usage of と in the following sentence. It's a bit of vague for me, maybe it is conditional?

カフェインを摂取したいんなら自販機で買ってこい。うちの学校の自販機は一杯五十円とリーズナブルだぞ。

Context: Speaker was invited to go drink for a coffee after school, however he didn't want to go anywhere, and that's what he answered.

I believe it's a simple AND in this case.
Our school vending machine is Y50/cup and reasonable.

Yoshie · 18 Dec 2015

I thought it was an adjective... Or it could be both?

Mike Cash · 18 Dec 2015

mdchachi said:
I believe it's a simple AND in this case.
Our school vending machine is Y50/cup and reasonable.

That would be more like で

カフェインを摂取したいんなら自販機で買ってこい。うちの学校の自販機は一杯五十円と {言う} リーズナブル {な価格} だぞ。

I'm not sure of the technical explanation or name for this usage.

mdchachi · 18 Dec 2015

I didn't know you could drop the と言う in this usage. I thought it was the simple NOUN と NOUN case. Yes, リーズナブル is a na-adjective but these behave as nouns too; they are also called adjectival nouns. In other words, my vote is still for my interpretation.
Somebody needs to turn on the Toritoribe-signal and call him here so we can find the true answer.

Mike Cash · 18 Dec 2015

@mdchachi

Would you say ポチは犬と可愛いです for "Pochi is a dog and he's cute"?

Or ポチは犬で可愛いです ?

道子は綺麗と親切です or 道子は綺麗で親切です？

Toritoribe · 18 Dec 2015

と is for quotation, as Mike-san wrote.
e.g.
正月休みは10日間とかなり長い。
評価は優と成績は優秀だ。
標高は7000ｍと相当高い。

We all have seen the same と before, by the way.
Expressing surprise about an (undeserved) offer | Japan Forum

mdchachi · 18 Dec 2015

Dang I shouldn't have taken that bet.

Mike Cash said:
Would you say ポチは犬と可愛いです for "Pochi is a dog and he's cute"?

Certainly not.

Mike Cash said:
道子は綺麗と親切です or 道子は綺麗で親切です？

That was the question and I wasn't sure because I don't find myself stringing together na-adjectives like that much. Since I didn't realize you could optionally drop the と言う, by process of elimination I came up with my wrong justification.
Anyway that's one reason I like hanging out here. Kaizen'ing my nihongo.

Mike Cash · 18 Dec 2015

mdchachi said:
Anyway that's one reason I like hanging out here. Kaizen'ing my nihongo.

A little kaizen can't hurt any of us.

The trick in this case was a matter of considering what is not there in the English translation you carne up with, which is essentially a collapsed construction.

Consider:

Coffee is 50 yen. Coffee is reasonable.
Coffee is 50 yen and coffee is reasonable.
Coffee is 50 yen and [coffee is] reasonable.
Coffee is 50 yen and reasonable.

As you can see, semantically this isn't a matter of simply joining two items with a conjunction; it is a matter of dropping the duplication of the subject and the modal verb. This is why if you wanted the equivalent of this in Japanese you wouldn't join them with と serving as "and" but instead would need to join them with the conjugated copula (だ (な) ー＞で) serving the same function as the dropped modal verb in English.

You can easily see the same thing at work in the example sentences I made up. I hope this gives a little better idea why 〜な adjectives work the way they do and why they aren't strung together with と.

WonkoTheSane · 18 Dec 2015

Mike Cash said:
...This is why if you wanted the equivalent of this in Japanese you wouldn't join them with と serving as "and" but instead would need to join them with the conjugated copula (だ (な) ー＞で) serving the same function as the dropped modal verb in English.

Is this a different で than the particle indicating location/use of?

It feels entirely different but maybe I've just been misunderstanding で this whole time.

Mike Cash · 18 Dec 2015

WonkoTheSane said:
Is this a different で than the particle indicating location/use of?

It feels entirely different but maybe I've just been misunderstanding で this whole time.

Have you learned about "na" adjectives yet?

WonkoTheSane · 18 Dec 2015

Mike Cash said:
Have you learned about "na" adjectives yet?

Only of their existence, and if they come up during a lesson on another grammar point what to do with them.

For example, i-adj.くて~ vs. na-adj.で~ when expressing a cause and effect relationship (心配で眠れない). Nothing more comprehensive, though, and I thought the くて was the strange one and the で was really just a form of 'by the use of (the preceding)' like 電車で会社に行きます.

mdchachi · 18 Dec 2015

WonkoTheSane said:
Is this a different で than the particle indicating location/use of?

Yes, as Mike said, it's the conjugated copula. In other words, the te-form of DESU.

Toritoribe · 21 Dec 2015

WonkoTheSane said:
For example, i-adj.くて~ vs. na-adj.で~ when expressing a cause and effect relationship (心配で眠れない). Nothing more comprehensive, though, and I thought the くて was the strange one and the で was really just a form of 'by the use of (the preceding)' like 電車で会社に行きます.

The -te form of a verb/an adjective can express the cause/reason.
e.g.
疲れすぎて眠れない。
頭が痛くて眠れない。
不安で眠れない。

Noun + で has the same function.
e.g.
疲れすぎで眠れない。
頭痛で眠れない。
不安で眠れない。

As you can see above, the two interpretations, "the -te form of na-adjective" and "noun + で", are both possible for the -te form of a na-adjective such like 心配で.

As for 電車で会社に行きます, で indicates the means.

Function of と

Yoshie

先輩

mdchachi

Moderator

Yoshie

先輩

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

mdchachi

Moderator

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

mdchachi

Moderator

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

WonkoTheSane

先輩

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

WonkoTheSane

先輩

mdchachi

Moderator

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

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