fluency question

GoldCoinLover · 17 Dec 2005

I was chatting with a member I knew for awhile here, this paticular member signed up on the forums and knew basically no japanese, so I taught her the basics.

I asked her/him how long this person has been studying japanese, as he/she seemed, amazingly, to become fluent. This person lived in canada, so not japan, and said he/she had chatted in chat forums for 2 hours a day for 4 months. From what I could understand, this person seemed fluent. He/she kept asking me questions in japanese which i did not understand.

I'm pretty sure this person used a translator or something. This perosn said he/she had been studying for 4 months, and was very, very good at typing kanji.

I asked this person if he/she knew about the term "Joudan desu", I spelled it wrong as "Jodan desu." and then he/she said how to spell it correctly in japanese with the kanji.

So, I want to know, is it even possible to become fluent in japanese in 4 months, not living there?

Also, what does "ima" mean? I keep hearing it means "now' but it is used alot more often and it appraretly doesnt mean this.

Thanks everyone

GoldCoinLover · 17 Dec 2005

My mistake. I thought it was fine as long as I didn't mention the persons name. Also, this was NOT through PM, this was through MSN messenger.

Mike Cash · 17 Dec 2005

1. I don't think you did anything wrong in the way you presented the intial post (as far as privacy goes).

2. I wouldn't go so far as to say it is impossible, but I feel comfortable saying it is highly improbable.

Elizabeth · 17 Dec 2005

From what I could understand, this person seemed fluent. He/she kept asking me questions in japanese which i did not understand.

I agree with mikecash. Although it's even less possible for a beginner to be a good judge of fluency as it is to actually achieve it in that period of time.

Also, what does "ima" mean? I keep hearing it means "now' but it is used a lot more often and it apparently doesn't mean this.

Do you have an example ? Reibun wo kaite kudasai.
Please write a sample sentence (reibun、例文).

99.99% of the time it does mean now, currently or at present,
although it can also refer to soon, immediate future, 'right away'
(ima ni (mo), ima no uchi ni) or one more time (ima hitotsu) in certain set expressions. You may be seeing the kanji in its on-reading as 'kon' or 'ko'
meaning 'this' (kotoshi = this year, konban = tonight, etc)

Elizabeth · 17 Dec 2005

GoldCoinLover said:
My mistake. I thought it was fine as long as I didn't mention the persons name. Also, this was NOT through PM, this was through MSN messenger.

It would be such an senseless way to get banned,
you may want to run any disclosures about another member (from this or any forum, PM or MSN, email or letter) past a moderator before posting just to make absolutely sure.

GoldCoinLover · 18 Dec 2005

Elizabeth said:
It would be such an senseless way to get banned,
you may want to run any disclosures about another member (from this or any forum, PM or MSN, email or letter) past a moderator before posting just to make absolutely sure.

Unfortunately from this person I do not have any sentences left. I was talking through MSN messenger not PM's. However, Elizabeth-san or mikecash, do you know anyway I could find my past records of MSN messenger? I Know you can do this on AIM somehow, it saves every converstaion somewhere.

However, I DO know that, well I was posting on the south park in their FAQ question (One of the makers, trey, happens to be fluent in japanese, so I write , one, and it actually gets posted

Q. - I have a friend who lives in Japan, and he's a Vegan and likes PETA. Should I show him the transcripts for that "Chinpokomon" episode (I know alot of japanese) or would he be offended? Thanks!

A. - If he gets offended, remember, the proper response is "Jodan desu!"

So I tell this person "Jodan desu" (It's a joke) but I didn't know I left out the 'u'. So that person says, "What does that mean?", and I tell it "Its a joke? and this person says its "Joudan desu" then types the correct kanji:
冗談

Honestly, I am jealous and frustrated.I probably look at japanese for 2 hours a day myself, and I forget most of it. Why? Because I don't live in Japan. I hope to go there, as I am now done with high school. But college is hard and I don't know when I'm going to start. It would be relief to me if this person was using some type of translator (person on the chat, program, etc). but some of the stuff he/she said says otherwise. Such as knowing "Its a joke>' I mean, how could this person have known this in only 4 months?

bentenmusume · 18 Dec 2005

GoldCoinLover,

I take the time to respond your posts because you seem to have a genuine desire to learn the Japanese language. I'm just going to respond to a number of the things you're saying (and implying) in your posts here, and I hope you can take them to heart.

First of all, like Elizabeth says, it is impossible for a beginning student of the language (such as yourself right now) to evaluate true "fluency". Knowing the meaning and kanji of 冗談です doesn't mean anything -- it's a very simple phrase and no doubt he just came across it somewhere. When you're a beginner, everyone who knows more than you do seems impressive. It doesn't mean they're "fluent" -- just that they know something you don't (yet). How do you even know for sure that he'd only been studying the language for four months? Because he said so?

More importantly, though -- even if there is some infinitesimal 0.00000000000001% chance that this guy is a rare linguistic genius and actually went from zero Japanese to (semi-)"fluent" in four months... guess what? It doesn't matter. It has absolutely nothing to do with you. So maybe you've been studying for longer than him and don't know as much. Who cares? Everyone learns at their own pace. What's important is that if you want to learn Japanese, that you keep studying and don't let slow progress frustrate you. If you stick with the language, study hard and study _well_, you WILL achieve a certain level of proficiency -- and if you stick with it for a number of years, your level will no doubt be higher than some of these people who seem so impressive to you now.

I told you in your other thread (about wanting to be a video game translator) that you have a long and tough road ahead of you. It's hard enough without letting meaningless stuff like random people on the internet and how well they do or don't speak Japanese distract you from your own goals. If you're impressed with someone's Japanese -- you can ask them for some study tips, perhaps. Thinking "Ohhhhhhhh his Japanese is so awesome and mine sucks so bad... I'm hopeless, woe is me" won't get you anywhere.

One last thing:

GoldCoinLover said:
Honestly, I am jealous and frustrated.I probably look at japanese for 2 hours a day myself, and I forget most of it. Why? Because I don't live in Japan.

If you think that simply living in Japan will help you learn all the things that you're struggling to remember now... you're in for a rude awakening.

GoldCoinLover · 18 Dec 2005

jt_ said:
GoldCoinLover,

I take the time to respond your posts because you seem to have a genuine desire to learn the Japanese language. I'm just going to respond to a number of the things you're saying (and implying) in your posts here, and I hope you can take them to heart.

First of all, like Elizabeth says, it is impossible for a beginning student of the language (such as yourself right now) to evaluate true "fluency". Knowing the meaning and kanji of ﾂ湘ｧ窶冖窶堙??堋ｷ doesn't mean anything -- it's a very simple phrase and no doubt he just came across it somewhere. When you're a beginner, everyone who knows more than you do seems impressive. It doesn't mean they're "fluent" -- just that they know something you don't (yet). How do you even know for sure that he'd only been studying the language for four months? Because he said so?

More importantly, though -- even if there is some infinitesimal 0.00000000000001% chance that this guy is a rare linguistic genius and actually went from zero Japanese to (semi-)"fluent" in four months... guess what? It doesn't matter. It has absolutely nothing to do with you. So maybe you've been studying for longer than him and don't know as much. Who cares? Everyone learns at their own pace. What's important is that if you want to learn Japanese, that you keep studying and don't let slow progress frustrate you. If you stick with the language, study hard and study _well_, you WILL achieve a certain level of proficiency -- and if you stick with it for a number of years, your level will no doubt be higher than some of these people who seem so impressive to you now.

I told you in your other thread (about wanting to be a video game translator) that you have a long and tough road ahead of you. It's hard enough without letting meaningless stuff like random people on the internet and how well they do or don't speak Japanese distract you from your own goals. If you're impressed with someone's Japanese -- you can ask them for some study tips, perhaps. Thinking "Ohhhhhhhh his Japanese is so awesome and mine sucks so bad... I'm hopeless, woe is me" won't get you anywhere.

One last thing:

If you think that simply living in Japan will help you learn all the things that you're struggling to remember now... you're in for a rude awakening.

Thank you for the kind and helpful post. I do learn bits and phrases here, but I do need to go over the particles again, I forgot most of them. I also do not study that much anymore because I do not go to a japanese class. However, if there's one thing I'm good at, it's persistance. I will not give up until I am fluent. And I'm not frusterated either. I can already understand alot of words in every sentence

What I mean't was if you live in japan,and speak it everyday and DO NOT speak to or hang around english speaking people, your japanese WILL improve, if you take effort to learn it.

I cannot find a japanese class anywhere. All the community colleges don't offer them. And I cannot start a university

Mike Cash · 18 Dec 2005

Want to know when my Japanese ability started to show some progress? It was the day I made my livelihood dependent on it. Up until then, it was strictly an academic exercise.

Mikawa Ossan · 18 Dec 2005

My Japanese started to improve when I moved in with a couple of Japanese guys (in America) who, although they technically there to learn English, had zero motivation to actually do so.

That's also where I got over any culture shock that I might have experienced.

Elizabeth · 19 Dec 2005

What I mean't was if you live in japan,and speak it everyday and DO NOT speak to or hang around english speaking people, your japanese WILL improve, if you take effort to learn it.

I cannot find a japanese class anywhere. All the community colleges don't offer them. And I cannot start a university

Naturally it will improve for you in Japan. Most people take two or three years of classes in an intensive setting to become reasonably 'fluent,' but what is crucial is to take every opportunity now to lay the foundation for that by motivating yourself and studying as hard as possible regardless.

It will improve if you talk to Japanese people or other learners here on this forum, in Phoenix or wherever. Trust me on that. I was very disorganized/unfocused when I started and forgot virtually everything I learned for the first two years. As everyone has said, though, persistence is the key and it WILL pay off in time.

GoldCoinLover · 19 Dec 2005

I just graduated high school honestly I don't want to study 5 hours + a day. I enjoy japanese but I cannot dedicate a whole day reading a book on it, heh. I'm guessing thats what you mean by 'study hard'.

But you're right I should study, but for now Im juts learning bits and pieces. Hehe

Elizabeth I PM'd you. Can you please answer it when you get the time? I want to know how long youve known japanese and how long it took you to become so good. Also, is your japanese naitve level?

Elizabeth · 19 Dec 2005

Elizabeth I PM'd you. Can you please answer it when you get the time? I want to know how long youve known japanese and how long it took you to become so good. Also, is your japanese naitve level?

I'll respond tomorrow when I have the chance and do the translation then as well. I'm spending waaaay too much time on this board for my own benefit right now.

Mike Cash · 19 Dec 2005

GoldCoinLover said:
I just graduated high school honestly I don't want to study 5 hours + a day. I enjoy japanese but I cannot dedicate a whole day reading a book on it, heh. I'm guessing thats what you mean by 'study hard'.

1 Corinthians 13:11

bentenmusume · 19 Dec 2005

GoldCoinLover,

Studying hard isn't simply a matter of how many hours a day you put into Japanese (though that is part of it). Just out of curiosity, you said above that you "look at Japanese" for two hours a day. How exactly are you studying now? If you could describe this, maybe some of us could give you tips on how to study more effectively.

I really think that a class would be the best thing for you, as it seems like you're struggling with how best to study. Having some structured learning (in the form of a class) might make you feel like you're making steady progress, rather than just learning "bits and pieces" which are subsequently forgotten and replaced with other bits and pieces.

GoldCoinLover said:
I cannot find a japanese class anywhere. All the community colleges don't offer them. And I cannot start a university

Many universities will allow you to take a class or two without being a matriculated student -- you may want to look into this option. Failing everything else, you could just get yourself an introductory textbook (the kind that would be used in a college class) and start studying from that. It wouldn't be the same as having a skilled teacher, but at least it would give you more structure to your study methods than you have now.

GoldCoinLover said:
What I mean't was if you live in japan,and speak it everyday and DO NOT speak to or hang around english speaking people, your japanese WILL improve, if you take effort to learn it.

Yes, of course. But what I meant was that if you go to Japan before you've reached a certain fundamental level of proficiency, you'll find that it's very difficult to pull off what you're describing. This is not to say that it's impossible -- and being surrounded by the language every day is great motivation -- but you can save yourself a lot of trouble by learning the basics of the language before diving headfirst into the deep end of the pool, so to speak.

GoldCoinLover · 19 Dec 2005

Is this good for "how is my japanese"?

私の日本語はどうでしょうか？

GoldCoinLover · 19 Dec 2005

Thank you jt. I learn japanese from japanese friends, and I read about it alot. However, I keep having trouble with particles. And another thing, kanji. I read books and a dictionary to look up wards. I do know basic words, I know wa, ga, no, etc. But some I dont understand such as 'wo' which is used alot.

cacawate · 19 Dec 2005

I think 私の日本語はどうだと思いますか might be good. I think the sentence you wrote is more along the lines of 'I wonder how my Japanese is'. Kind of sounds weird though. Anyone else on this?

bentenmusume · 19 Dec 2005

「私の日本語はどうですか」 or whatever is perfectly fine grammatically, but I would advise you against asking these questions. I mean, what's the point? Regardless of what they tell you, it doesn't change the reality of your situation -- you're a beginning student at the beginning of a long path that will someday (hopefully) lead to a reasonable degree of proficiency.

Rather than concerning yourself with how to ask people how good/bad your Japanese is, you should focus on more meaningful things -- like building a basic foundation in Japanese sentence structure and continuing to learn basic vocabulary. Hopefully it won't be long before you're able to handle a basic getting-to-know-you conversation in Japanese. At this point, you won't be so concerned about asking them what they think about your Japanese, because you'll be more interested and focused on the actual conversation that's going on.

If you're dead-set on getting opinions about your Japanese, a more useful question might be 「あって（い）ますか？」 (or 「日本語あって（い）ますか？」) (for reference, the kanji would be 合っています and the （い） is in parentheses because it's often dropped in speech) after you've just said something -- this is one way of asking whether or not whatever you just said was correct.

bentenmusume · 19 Dec 2005

GoldCoinLover said:
Thank you jt. I learn japanese from japanese friends, and I read about it alot. However, I keep having trouble with particles. And another thing, kanji. I read books and a dictionary to look up wards. I do know basic words, I know wa, ga, no, etc. But some I dont understand such as 'wo' which is used alot.

Again, I think you could really benefit from a good class, or at the very least a good textbook. The problem with your current method of learning is that you're probably exposing yourself to all sorts of difficult concepts, vocabulary, etc. with no conception of which is most important to learn at this current stage in your studies. A textbook can be good because you'll learn things in an order that, for the most part, is agreed upon by experienced educators as an effective order for beginning students.

Search for some of these textbooks on some site like amazon.com:
Genki, Nakama, Japanese for Busy People, Japanese: The Spoken Language, Yookoso, Minna no Nihongo. Find one you like, pick it up, and start from page 1.
Another good book is the "Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar" by Makino and Tsutsui. It's not a textbook, but it can be a great companion book, as it has excellent illustrations of many particles and basic components of Japanese sentence structure.

Mike Cash · 19 Dec 2005

GoldCoinLover said:
I just graduated high school honestly I don't want to study 5 hours + a day. I enjoy japanese but I cannot dedicate a whole day reading a book on it, heh. I'm guessing thats what you mean by 'study hard'.

I'm guessing that I really ought to go ahead and post the actual verse instead of hoping that you'd look it up yourself:

The Apostle Paul said:
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1 Corinthians 13:11

The point being, if you have some goals as to what you wish to make of your adult life, then it is time to set the various video game systems aside and buckle down to doing some actual work toward achieving those goals.

From reading JREF, you should be well aware by now that there isn't much getting around the bachelors degree requirement for American citizens hoping to come to Japan to work legally. You say you graduated high school. What are you doing about college?

fluency question

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いかんわ！

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観察するのが好きです

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