Elitist and Rabid Fangirls (or boys)

[yuna_leska]

nicely said!!!

 

[Kinsao]

Misunderstandings abound...

I was confused, because I could see SaKeVi's point about the term "J-rock", but I didn't see how that tied in with being "elitist". I mean, I was thinking that the whole hydra-like debate about music classifications, what to call stuff, and "is Japanese music different? and/or better?" was somehow getting tangled up with the issue of "elitist", which is a different thing. But people's last posts have kinda straightened things out as I see them:

When you put useless tags to music, making it with the only purpouse to make it "different" from everything else (eventhough it is just the same thing as worldwide rock, as I said) I consider it becomes elitist...

Aha - now I can see why you were making that association, because you have explained what was going on in your head.
But I think you're wrong there... I don't think people say "J-rock" because they want to be different and think it's "better" than non-Japanese music. Hebiichigo phrased it better than I can:

I don't think people use the term "J-rock" in order to be elitist. It probably doesn't cross their mind at all. In my opinion, if they're not actually thinking, "I'll say it like THIS so that I look better than everyone else.." they're not trying to be elitist at all. I think it's so widely used people just don't notice.

But...

most of people I know say that japanese music is the best, and putting your "j-rock" above "regular music" becomes an elitist attitude.

Aha, getting to another different point, yes, that would be elitist to think like that. In fact, there is so much music out there it's not possible to listen to everything, but I make an effort to try and listen to stuff from different countries because I don't want to fall into that trap of limiting my listening (besides, otherwise I'd miss out on some good stuff! ).

But I don't think that's what is in the minds of people here, although I'm not denying there are fans like that. In fact, there have been discussions in this sub-forum about whether Japanese music is actually "better" than non-Japanese (I think most people are agreed that to think so would be racist, and judge music on technical skills and personal taste primarily). What people were discussing in this thread was elitism among fans of Japanese rock music - i.e. people who think they know more about certain bands, or think they are somehow "better fans", or think they are "more J-rock" because of the way they dress... and crap like that. Because, at the moment it's not so common to find people in the west who listen to Japanese music, so there's a feeling that we should stick together, support each other and be friendly!

The term Japcore is used to refer to a series of fast-paced punk bands, from Japan. The original intent of Japcore, was to protest the social, and economic changes, sweeping Japan. GISM are considered by many, to be the founding fathers of Japcore. Most Japcore artists include elements of crust punk, anarcho punk, & d-beat in their songs, and focus on issues of global warming, disarming nuclear weapons, and corruption caused by capitalism.

Thank you for explaining Japcore to me. I'm really bad at categories of music, and although I'd heard of Japcore I had no idea of the sound. I like music of GISM and I knew they were a punk band because DemonHunter had told us about them, but I can honestly say that if I'd listened to them without knowing that already, I would never have known their "classification"! It's the same with The Zolge - for so many times I heard them described as "a punk band" but when I finally got to hear them, their music seemed to me exactly like the kind of stuff I'd have described as "rock"! I don't like classifications... I suck at them.

 

[POISONxIVY]

I'm confused kinsao. Why does it say you are quoting sunsweet, wasn't that quote from me? Or did I miss something here? haha

 

[Normphobic]

Classifications aren't really that important, and when genres cross-over then it really gets tricky when people ask you to categorize a band. I don't use the term Jrock when talking to my friends about what I'm listening to, I always say, "I'm listening to a Japanese metal band." Or whatever genre it is I happen to be listening to at the time. And saying the band is Japanese isn't elitist of me either, because I do that with almost every type of music I listen to. I listen to a lot of international music, so I always specify countries (Belgian EBM, German synthpop, South African gothic rock, etc.)

I have never heard of tagging a country to a genre just because they created it. If that were the case then why don't we say Ameripunk or Britgoth? It's simply punk and goth. Jrock is a broader term, because a lot of times it's applied to music that might not be classic rock. It just means the band is from Japan, and it makes things a lot easier by using it sometimes. Putting people down for their vocabulary doesn't make you look any better. I will never understand why people who lack self-esteem feel the need to degrade others in order to feel good about themselves. We are in a Jpop forum, if putting a J in front of something really bothers you that much, then why did you come here?

 

[Kinsao]

I'm confused kinsao. Why does it say you are quoting sunsweet, wasn't that quote from me? Or did I miss something here? haha

Oh - sorry if I quoted the wrong person. :sorry:
Today's Kinsao =

 

[POISONxIVY]

haha it's okay I thought I was going crazy lol!

 

[Nana007]

It's easier to just say J-Rock. Now when people just go and say things like J-Punk, J-Goth, J-Ska, J-Metal, J-DeathMetal J-Emo and all those other classifications it becomes kind of elitists. J-Rock is just an umbrella term for me.

As far as do I think I am better cause I listen to Japanese music or do I think I am unique. I am not better, I might be a little bit open minded, but not better. Am I unique helk no. I know at least 12 other people in my circle who listen to J-Rock from the Hardcore fan, to the I like a few songs from this artist, but its really not my thing. Thats like saying my friend who listens electroclash (which I love) is better than us cause she is the only one really into it. I think that people who listen TO ONLY J-Rock as if its the only worthwhile music to listen to are elitists. To say I am on this forum so much, J-Rock really isn't that much my favorite music. Out of the 9.67 GB's of music on my computer (Yea my comp is dead) only about 2 of it is JMusic.

Now a person who doesn't know me might think thats all I listen to, cause I have more J-Rock cd's than any other artist. But thats just cause I don't buy cd's unless I really like and want to support the artist. I support my FAV j-rock artists (the rest get downloaded) because I want them to see that even if it is one fan they have one fan from X and they might come here.

 

[SaKeVi]

Well, I think that I have to clarify something: I'm talking about this because I have lived this situation, before and everyday... I should have investigated before making this if you fit on what I have defined as "jappers" (some japanese wannabe freaks) or not, but in ispite of this, I still believe on what I'm saying.

Hmmm, let's make this by parts:

So, do you think the creator of these forums are elitist because this subforum (is that even the right word?) is labelled "J-Pop" and not just "Pop"? Because Japanese pop is just pop music sung in Japanese. And after we all talk mainly about Japan so we should just know that this is a forum for Japanese music even if it's not labelled "J-Pop"... Right?

Mmmm, he is not "elitist", after all, this is a Japan Forum... and talking about personal experiences, I have to say that some forums are "elitist" (NOT this one) because they have a music forum and *boom*, you can see an special subforum of "jpop"... why don't they open a British music subforum?? or even a mexican music subforum?? This could be elitist, don't you think so??

And talking about this forum, I think I can use again what I said before: if this is a JAPANESE forum, why do you have to use the "j" tag?? it is redundant, it's like asking "what does the cooking channel show??" I think it is implicit that we are going to talk about japanese music in a japanese forum, so I think the "j" here is useless

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think people use the term "J-rock" in order to be elitist. It probably doesn't cross their mind at all. In my opinion, if they're not actually thinking, "I'll say it like THIS so that I look better than everyone else.." they're not trying to be elitist at all. I think it's so widely used people just don't notice. I don't think it's that big of a deal

Thanks for understanding what I'm trying to explain, I know also that I didn't make it on a right way, but I felt dissapointed to see that even in other parts of the world the japanese music listeners would be the same as the ones I have to put up with everyday on some forums.

Sadly, that thing that you say happens here in Latin America, here the "otakus" (speciallyin Mexico) kidnapped japanese music and made it an elitist thing... they made a "clichﾃｩ" that all japanese music is just the anime intros and endings, and if you listen to japanese music you are an otaku, and even worse: if you are not an otaku you can't listen to japanese music... also, they affirm that Visual Kei is a music style eek: ) when it is just an aesthetic style.

I guess that if you say you're not making it for being elitist, I have to believe it :sorry:

I never said Jrock was a style of rock, so I don't know what you are getting at with this. I never disagreed with you that japanese rock music is just rock music that is from japan, and has japanese members in it. If you don't like the letter J in front of things, why are you in a Jpop forum? It doesn't make much sense to me.

You're right, you never said that, I tried to make a general question, that pointed to you at the end... and about the second thing, I'm here because I like music from Japan, not because you (all) use or not a "j"... also, I'm not very active here, and I don't like Visual Kei too, but I'm not posting in every threat what I think about them, right?

I don't need apples, or muppets to understand japcore, but a nice red delicious would be tasty right now.

I was talking about what I was saying in general, not only japcore... again, I'm not good expressing what I think >_<

The term Japcore is used to refer to a series of fast-paced punk bands, from Japan. The original intent of Japcore, was to protest the social, and economic changes, sweeping Japan. GISM are considered by many, to be the founding fathers of Japcore. Most Japcore artists include elements of crust punk, anarcho punk, & d-beat in their songs, and focus on issues of global warming, disarming nuclear weapons, and corruption caused by capitalism.

Heh, you know what?? I hate wikipedia it is so contradictory that it makes me get mad... it is correct only until G.I.S.M. (not gism) because they are not a japcore band, and never will be, they were a crossover of hardcore punk and heavy metal. Also, japcore (as it says) is a fast-pace rhythm, and d-beat is a down tempo rhythm... mix them and you get hardcore or crust punk, not Japcore.

Do you want to hear a pure Japcore band?? try Gauze, and compare Pa Pa Pa; Yama Hukaku Yuki Imada Tokez; Ha Wo Kuishibare or Kao o aratte denaoshite koi songs with Nuclear armed hogs of G.I.S.M. to see what I'm talking about.

But hey, that's not what we are talking about here girl so if you need more info or something (I doubt it) PM me.

I just think it is idiotic of you to come to a thread titled Jpop and complain about people using the terms jpop and jrock. Why does it matter if someone says Jrock? Who cares? Do you have nothing better to do than complain about what someone calls a genre of music? I couldn't care less that you use the term japcore, I was just trying to bring it up as a point that you can include jap in front of something, but why can't other people include a j?

I explained the whole "jpop" on a "jpop" forum... and well, maybe you're right that it doesn't matter, but I consider it does matter for things like THIS... <-- click there if someone don't notice ﾂｬ_ﾂｬ

As I said in the beginning if this post (and also on that threat) some people rejects "jpop" because of the pure tag, not because they are racist or not interested, lots of people have told me that when they hear jpop or j-whatever, sounds like they feel "unique" or "special"... I'm not saying people aren't wrong, but that's what many people who don't know about japanese music think about it.

And for the "core" thing, I said it before: japcore is unique, is only played in Japan, you won't find it easily around the world (only some bands in U.S. are influenced by japcore) because in punk, japanese bands INVENTED it... it is like the brit-pop thing, I guess, it is a particular kind of pop that describes what they play, or something like that

Why do you have to belittle complete strangers on the internet? You are doing exactly what this thread is talking about, I don't know if that was your initial intentions. Either way you would be well advised to drop it, and leave the forum if it bothers you that much that people say Jrock. Let people express themselves however they want. Here in America we have something called freedom of speech... I like that.

Jrock - Amen.

Hehehehe, I'm not trying to belittle anyone here (and if it looks like, I'm sorry) and I'm not trying to sound like an expert of japanese music... I just like it because I was part of it for a time and that made me love punk and heavy metal from Japan.

And you're right, you have freedom of speech, just as I do, and if my speeches are just offensive for you or anyone else, you have the option of ignore me, as I have ignored most of threats in this forum (like picture threats...)

You can name it j-whatever, I don't have the enough power to make you change your mind, but I also have my reasons why I think what I think, and as I said before to you, I'm not trying to make you think the same way I do, I just came to this threat to say what I think about those tags.

I'll continue on a next post for kinsao, normphobic and nana posts.

 

[SaKeVi]

Let's continue:

I was confused, because I could see SaKeVi's point about the term "J-rock", but I didn't see how that tied in with being "elitist". I mean, I was thinking that the whole hydra-like debate about music classifications, what to call stuff, and "is Japanese music different? and/or better?" was somehow getting tangled up with the issue of "elitist", which is a different thing.

I know I didn't explain it before, in my last post, I explained why I associate the tag with being elitist, I'm sorry.

Aha - now I can see why you were making that association, because you have explained what was going on in your head.

But I think you're wrong there... I don't think people say "J-rock" because they want to be different and think it's "better" than non-Japanese music.

Well, I think I shouldn't generalize anymore... but hey, I know a lot of people (unfortunately) who affirm that japanese music is better than non japanese music, that's where all my rage comes from

What people were discussing in this thread was elitism among fans of Japanese rock music - i.e. people who think they know more about certain bands, or think they are somehow "better fans", or think they are "more J-rock" because of the way they dress... and crap like that.

Hmm, so did I, but I'm sorry if I took it to a general level, as I said, I have to live with that everyday and it is upsetting.

Because, at the moment it's not so common to find people in the west who listen to Japanese music, so there's a feeling that we should stick together, support each other and be friendly!

And why is that feeling for?? as you said before, that attitude just build up barriers instead of breaking them down

Thank you for explaining Japcore to me. I'm really bad at categories of music, and although I'd heard of Japcore I had no idea of the sound. I like music of GISM and I knew they were a punk band because DemonHunter had told us about them, but I can honestly say that if I'd listened to them without knowing that already, I would never have known their "classification"!

I'm sorry, but as always, wikipedia is wrong with that term of japcore... never trust wikipedia!!

Classifications aren't really that important, and when genres cross-over then it really gets tricky when people ask you to categorize a band. I don't use the term Jrock when talking to my friends about what I'm listening to, I always say, "I'm listening to a Japanese metal band." Or whatever genre it is I happen to be listening to at the time. And saying the band is Japanese isn't elitist of me either, because I do that with almost every type of music I listen to. I listen to a lot of international music, so I always specify countries (Belgian EBM, German synthpop, South African gothic rock, etc.)

Hmmm, I get what you're saying, but I have to ask: why only japanese music is tagged??? you're right, some times we need to specify where is the band from, but I have never heard any "country tag" (maybe brit-pop) for any music band who haven't "patented" a music style.

I have never heard of tagging a country to a genre just because they created it. If that were the case then why don't we say Ameripunk or Britgoth? It's simply punk and goth.

Japcore, he is normphobic... normphobic, it is japcore

Japcore was named like that as it could be called UltraFastAnarchistAnticapitalismVeganismAntinuclearAndImperialismCore, I don't know, maybe it was just easier for them to call it "japcore" =/

Jrock is a broader term, because a lot of times it's applied to music that might not be classic rock. It just means the band is from Japan, and it makes things a lot easier by using it sometimes.

So, if the band isn't rock, it is correct to call it "jrock"??? if you think it is, you are just lying, aren't you??

Anyways, I KNOW that the other person will ask you "uh? what is jrock??", and you will have to explain "well, it is japanese rock"... I'm sure it has happened to all of you.

And coming to that point, if you talk to a japanese music fan about L'arc en Ciel, he already knows that they are japanese, the same happens with X, Luna Sea, Malice Mizer, Ayumi Hamasaki (and so on...) so, why do you use that "j" tag, if both of you ALREADY KNOW that you're talking of japanese bands??? I just don't get it.

Putting people down for their vocabulary doesn't make you look any better. I will never understand why people who lack self-esteem feel the need to degrade others in order to feel good about themselves. We are in a Jpop forum, if putting a J in front of something really bothers you that much, then why did you come here?

I know, but if you look at me as a better person, that's just because I'm charming

Ad I said, I'm not here because you use a "j" before a music style, I'm here because I like music from Japan, and also, I'm not here to be friend of all you, I search for any "new" bands info or helping on a threat when I can make it.

So, if you don't like my posts, you have a panel option of ignore an user, go ahead, and do it, but you can't stop me of posting here, and give my opinions even if I'm wrong

I think that's all for now, if I offended to all of you I'm sorry, and well, I'm open to continue discussing this thing, it is up to you, and as I said to normphobic, if you don't want me here, just ignore me!!

See you later.

 

[Nana007]

Had to dig up this thread because of this http://myspace-867.vo.llnwd.net/00601/76/89/601819867_l.jpg
Wah that fan scares me

 

[Champloo]

And I thought I was weird for drawing Kyo's tattoo on my hand. ☝

 

[Nana007]

no champloo compared to that person you are normal.

 

[Rancid__]

Had to dig up this thread because of this http://myspace-867.vo.llnwd.net/00601/76/89/601819867_l.jpg
Wah that fan scares me

That just freaks/spooks me out!!!

 

[Ch_Niimura]

I used to do this kind of things...not with DEG but other groups I liked. But I stop doing that because my mom saw the scars and asked me...and...well you know how moms are xD

 

[grenadeglovegirl]

That's a little...obsessive....of that girl. Hmmm....well I guess everyone has their own things. One of my best friends when I was like, 12, carved her crush's initials into her ankle and attempted to fill it with ink, she said she was trying to make a tattoo. She was weird, XD

I mean, some people get band related tattoos, so I guess a scar is almost the same thing ☝

Except more weird. Haha

 

[Ch_Niimura]

a tatoo but more weird, exactly xD

 

[Ophelia]

i've never seen anyone dressing up visual or goth my whole life , hey i wonder if u guyz really putting on outfits and makeups like jrockers everyday?

 

[Champloo]

no champloo compared to that person you are normal.

So, if it were not for that person, i'd be considered really weird? :smoke: That's hot.

 

[Ch_Niimura]

I do make-up like a visual kei star in my everyday life ^^

 

[yukio_michael]

I think sometimes the worst trait about the jrock/visual scene is that its practioners rarely can see their own obsessive traits, let alone aptly level the blame for these types of traits at others. The Jrock forum... I just called it the Jrock forum without even thinking, because let's put our cards on the table, despite there being a wide variety of different and interesting types of music in Japan (which I emplore you to sometime check out...), the forum is filled with thread after thread comparing which Jrocker is the cutest... not exactly a level indication of non-obsession.

 

[Ophelia]

thats just for fun dude

 

[Champloo]

Fun...pfft We all know who owns them all.

 

[Ophelia]

hehehehee :smoke:

 

[Ch_Niimura]

eh? :-S

 

[Nana007]

I think sometimes the worst trait about the jrock/visual scene is that its practioners rarely can see their own obsessive traits, let alone aptly level the blame for these types of traits at others. The Jrock forum... I just called it the Jrock forum without even thinking, because let's put our cards on the table, despite there being a wide variety of different and interesting types of music in Japan (which I emplore you to sometime check out...), the forum is filled with thread after thread comparing which Jrocker is the cutest... not exactly a level indication of non-obsession.

I listen to alot of other types of music than JRock or specifically VK. So you really shoudn't generalize.