Edo period flag? (not ww2)

CalvinJH · 5 Jul 2017

Hey all,

Does anyone have experience/knowledge of flags from the Edo period or earlier?

I believe these flags can be seen at temples/shrines quite often. I also see these are dated, but not sure how to prove their legitimacy.

Any help would be appreciated.

Cheers

Majestic · 5 Jul 2017

This flag is dedicated to the Japanese/Buddhist god Hachiman (八幡大菩薩).
It is dated April 13th, 1842, or, in Japanese era system, Tenpo 13, zodiac year of water-tiger (mizunoe-tora, or 壬寅).
Looks like a temple flag to me, because it has the words "in dedication" (奉納) at the top.

CalvinJH · 7 Oct 2017

Thanks for your help with this one Majestic, I didn't win these, instead I picked up some others from a Boro fabric Seller (another strange hobby of mine).
Can I have some help with this one?

Cheers

Majestic · 8 Oct 2017

Shōichii Murayama Inari Daimyōjin
Its a banner that would be put up in a Shintō shrine, particularly the Inari shrine in Murayama, Tokyo.

Looks like it also contains a reference to Kondō Isami, a famous historical person of the Shinsengumi who was from around this area. However, I can't make out the words after that, and so the reference is lost on me.

Toritoribe · 8 Oct 2017

Other 村山稲荷大明神 exist/existed also in Saitama or Chiba Prefecture than Tokyo. There is the name of a village at the top of the left column, but clearer image is needed to read it.
What follows it is about the dedicator of the flag; 近藤？（南？）斉母た以八十八才織之 Tai, 88 years old, the mother of Kondō ?(Nan?)sai, wove this (flag).

CalvinJH · 8 Oct 2017

Majestic said:
Shōichii Murayama Inari Daimyōjin
Its a banner that would be put up in a Shintō shrine, particularly the Inari shrine in Murayama, Tokyo.

Looks like it also contains a reference to Kondō Isami, a famous historical person of the Shinsengumi who was from around this area. However, I can't make out the words after that, and so the reference is lost on me.

Toritoribe said:
Other 村山稲荷大明神 exist/existed also in Saitama or Chiba Prefecture than Tokyo. There is the name of a village at the top of the left column, but clearer image is needed to read it.
What follows it is about the dedicator of the flag; 近藤？（南？）斉母た以八十八才織之 Tai, 88 years old, the mother of Kondō ?(Nan?)sai, wove this (flag).

Thanks so much guys! This is incredibly interesting to see this item has such history. So it is from around 1830's-1870s?

There was another one sent to me from the same seller, but the size of that is probably about 12-16FT so it is incredibly hard to photograph.

Here are some better pictures of the smaller one:

Toritoribe · 10 Oct 2017

Seems like 木江村, or could be 中江村, but anyway, google search can't find it.

CalvinJH said:
So it is from around 1830's-1870s?

近藤勇 didn't use 南斉 as his name, and his mothers(he also had an adoptive mother) were not た以, thus, the flag has nothing to do with him.

CalvinJH · 15 Oct 2017

Toritoribe said:
Seems like 木江村, or could be 中江村, but anyway, google search can't find it.

近藤勇 didn't use 南斉 as his name, and his mothers(he also had an adoptive mother) were not た以, thus, the flag has nothing to do with him.

Many thanks for the reply, this is very interesting. So it would seem that we cannot accurately date the flag, but is the location the flag was used still correct at noted by Majestic? So it may have been used in a Shintō shrine in either, Murayama (Tokyo), Saitama or Chiba?

Also, I came up with a way to accurately photograph the lager flag using panoramic picture (see images below). This is about 12-13ft.

If there is a way to allow me to donate the forum please send me the link and I will do it when I get paid this month, you guys have been very helpful to me over the last few years! :

Majestic · 15 Oct 2017

This one has the date, March, Meiji 13 (1880) on it.

CalvinJH · 15 Oct 2017

Majestic said:
This one has the date, March, Meiji 13 (1880) on it.

Going by Japanese date conversion, it appears to be written down the right hand side, correct?

Thanks for help dude! I'm glad there is a confirmed date on this one, I assume they came from the same place, I will be taking very good care of it!

Cheers

Majestic · 15 Oct 2017

In answer to your other question, yes this would have been placed outside of a shrine. Specifically, outside of one of the Inari-Daimyōjin shrines, of which there are a ton in Japan. With the other bits of writing, we should be able to nail down a location, but the bits are just vague enough, or imprecise enough so that nothing obvious pops out from a search. You can see the same writing on banners used in other Inari-Daimyōjin shrines, such as the ones in the pictures below
東山・八坂神社～清水～豊国神社～六波羅密寺 by京都市未来まりづくり100人委員会 | Holiday [ホリデー]
神社人 - 正一位稲荷大明神
http://takabayashimanjiro2.cocolog-nifty.com/photos/uncategorized/2014/01/19/resize9219.jpg

Toritoribe · 15 Oct 2017

Murayama, meaning "village mountain", is a very common place name, so there are many other Murayama Inari Shrines than those places, as Majestic-san wrote. The last flag is interesting, by the way. The left column says 鏡䑓山居？書, thus, it's written by someone who lived in Kyōdai mountain. Kyōdai mountain is in Nagano Prefecture, and a Murayama Inari exists in Nagano City, so it could refer to the one in Nagano.

CalvinJH · 15 Oct 2017

Majestic said:
Shōichii Murayama Inari Daimyōjin
Its a banner that would be put up in a Shintō shrine, particularly the Inari shrine in Murayama, Tokyo.

Looks like it also contains a reference to Kondō Isami, a famous historical person of the Shinsengumi who was from around this area. However, I can't make out the words after that, and so the reference is lost on me.

Majestic said:
This one has the date, March, Meiji 13 (1880) on it.

Toritoribe said:
Murayama, meaning "village mountain", is a very common place name, so there are many other Murayama Inari Shrines than those places, as Majestic-san wrote. The last flag is interesting, by the way. The left column says 鏡䑓山居？書, thus, it's written by someone who lived in Kyōdai mountain. Kyōdai mountain is in Nagano Prefecture, and a Murayama Inari exists in Nagano City, so it could refer to the one in Nagano.

Thanks for the help guys! I really like the larger one and its good to know its dated, its a shame its so large as I can't frame it. I will keep it safe with my other large flags.

May I ask which Shrine you are referring to? There are many in the area., I see one in Saku City and in Matsumoto-shi but not Nagano city itself. 稲荷神社 - Wikipedia

Thanks again, to both!

Toritoribe · 16 Oct 2017

近年千曲川の流れが変わり、村山稲荷神社付近が数百メートルにわたり大きく侵食されている。
柳原地区市民会議 - 長野市ホームページ
This is a meeting minutes record of a region in Nagano city. 村山稲荷神社 might refer to 村山神社, which is located near the Chikuma river.

Edo period flag? (not ww2)

CalvinJH

Kouhai

Majestic

先輩

CalvinJH

Kouhai

Majestic

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

CalvinJH

Kouhai

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

CalvinJH

Kouhai

Majestic

先輩

CalvinJH

Kouhai

Majestic

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

CalvinJH

Kouhai

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

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