Due to/because of

The7thSamurai · 2 Dec 2007

Hey everyone,

I'm studying the translation of a business article and have a few questions. This is the first sentence:

中国わけても上海での事業は都市開発規模、成長のスピードそしてマーケットの大きさ等、参入する外国企業にとって大きなチャンスを提供しています。

And this is the "official" translation:
Business in China, particularly in Shanghai, appears to be promising for foreign ventures because of the large-scale urban development, rapid economic growth, and huge potential market in the country.

The thing I'd like to know is what part of the Japanese sentence expresses "because of", as seen in the English translation. I'd be looking for something like によると or のために after マーケットの大きさ等 but it just ends with a comma. Is this the illusive "context will tell" thing again?

JimmySeal · 2 Dec 2007

This is one of many problems with using an English translation to try to understand Japanese. The original sentence does not explicitly use a "because" of any sort. A more literal translation would be:

...都市開発規模、成長のスピードそしてマーケットの大きさ等、参入する外国企業にとって大きなチャンスを提供しています。
...urban development, rapid development, and the size of their market, etc., offer a big chance for participation in foreign ventures.

The7thSamurai · 2 Dec 2007

JimmySeal said:
This is one of many problems with using an English translation to try to understand Japanese. The original sentence does not explicitly use a "because" of any sort. A more literal translation would be:

...都市開発規模、成長のスピードそしてマーケットの大きさ等、参入する外国企業にとって大きなチャンスを提供しています。
...urban development, rapid development, and the size of their market, etc., offer a big chance for participation in foreign ventures.

Ok, but there's still no particle marking 都市開発規模、成長のスピードそしてマーケットの大きさ等. It should be が but it's not there. And considering that this is a business document I did't think you could drop particles.

Btw, I'm not studying translation to study Japanese, I'm studying translation to study translation.

Elizabeth · 3 Dec 2007

Bucko said:
Ok, but there's still no particle marking 都市開発規模、成長のスピードそしてマーケットの大きさ等. It should be が but it's not there. And considering that this is a business document I did't think you could drop

It shouldn't be が or は or anything. The topic is 海での事業は and explains who is doing the offering.

上海での事業は参入する外国企業にとって大きなチャンスを提供している.

都市開発規模、成長のスピードそしてマーケットの大きさ等 then becomes essentially a point of detail outlining the strong opportunities foreign firms entering the market can enjoy.

undrentide · 3 Dec 2007

Further to Elizabeth san's explanation;

中国（わけても上海）での事業は
（都市開発規模、成長のスピードそしてマーケットの大きさ等、）
（参入する外国企業にとって大きな）チャンスを
提供しています。

Core of the sentence:
事業は
チャンスを
提供しています。

中国での modifies 事業は
わけても上海（での） elaborates 中国での

大きなmodifies チャンス
参入する外国企業にとって elaborates 大きなチャンス

都市開発規模、・・・マーケットの大きさ等 gives some examples/aspects of 大きなチャンス

The7thSamurai · 4 Dec 2007

You guys are awesome.

I've started to read some more normal (i.e. non-textbook) Japanese lately I've often seen strings of phrases within phrases like this one and haven't really been able to figure out where it fits. The light is slowly starting to shine through.

The7thSamurai · 4 Dec 2007

Hope you don't mind me continuing this discussion...

Here's a sentence from a translation competion (deadline was Nov 30 so I think it's safe to discuss it - http://jat.org/?p=73)

警告表示を導入した直後はその内容を覚えているが、導入後１ヶ月を過ぎるとその割合は、低下するというオーストラリアの報告、警告表示の形式を変えなければ、内容だけを変えても効果がないという米国の報告などがある。

Let me see if I've got this right...here we've got a commar after 割合は which I think indicates that there is more than one point being made about the subject (in this case, the "ratio"). One point is the Australian report (ratio of people who remember decreases after the first month), and the other point is the American report (the content has no effect).

So at the core it looks like this:
警告表示を導入した直後はその内容を覚えているが
割合は、
a) 低下する報告
b) 警告表示の形式を変えなければ、内容だけを変えても効果がない報告
がある

Might seem strange but this is one of those lightbulb moments for me.

Elizabeth · 17 Dec 2007

Bucko said:
Hope you don't mind me continuing this discussion...

Here's a sentence from a translation competion (deadline was Nov 30 so I think it's safe to discuss it - http://jat.org/?p=73)

警告表示を導入した直後はその内容を覚えているが、導入後１ヶ月を過ぎるとその割合は、低下するというオーストラリアの報告、警告表示の形式を変えなければ、内容だけを変えても効果がないという米国の報告などがある。

Let me see if I've got this right...here we've got a commar after 割合は which I think indicates that there is more than one point being made about the subject (in this case, the "ratio").

Where did you get that ? The comma doesn't indicate anything particular in itself. This is nothing more than a sentence that has been written without a つながりの言葉 separating 報告 and 警告 (Could be replacing によると、がありなど impossible to say with the context gone.) Happens all the time as a "softening effect," especially for や. Revelation or not, the grammar is just completely different from the first example is my point...

Sorry I obviously missed this one the first time round...

The7thSamurai · 18 Dec 2007

Elizabeth said:
Where did you get that ? The comma doesn't indicate anything particular in itself. This is nothing more than a sentence that has been written without a つながりの言葉 separating 報告 and 警告 (Could be replacing によると、がありなど impossible to say with the context gone.) Happens all the time as a "softening effect," especially for や. Revelation or not, the grammar is just completely different from the first example is my point...

I know the grammar's not related, but just after seeing how both these more complex sentences work I can piece together other sentences. Had to explain. The thing about the comma was just my guess, since I figured that the subject kind of goes two different ways. I could be wrong, or I'm probably just not explaining myself property, but in either case I'm starting to understand things a bit better.

undrentide · 18 Dec 2007

警告表示を導入した直後はその内容を覚えているが、導入後１ヶ月を過ぎるとその割合は、低下するというオーストラリアの報告、警告表示の形式を変えなければ、内容だけを変えても効果がないという米国の報告などがある。

The core of this sentence is (maybe this is the same thing as what Elizabeth san mentioned):

オーストラリアの報告、米国の報告などがある。

「警告表示を導入した直後はその内容を覚えているが、導入後１ヶ月を過ぎるとその割合は、低下する」 is describing what the Australian report says, same goes with
「警告表示の形式を変えなければ、内容だけを変えても効果がない」 for ｔｈｅ American report.

警告表示を導入した直後はその（＝警告表示の）内容を覚えているが、
導入後１ヶ月を過ぎるとその（＝警告内容を覚えている人の）割合は、低下する

警告表示の形式を変えなければ、内容だけを変えても効果がない

Hope the above helps.

Due to/because of

The7thSamurai

Master of the Universe

JimmySeal

Tubthumper

The7thSamurai

Master of the Universe

Elizabeth

先輩

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

The7thSamurai

Master of the Universe

The7thSamurai

Master of the Universe

Elizabeth

先輩

The7thSamurai

Master of the Universe

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

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