Double-standards in the workplace...

Iron Chef · 4 Mar 2007

In Japan, women on average earn 44 percent of what men earn -- the widest income gap between sexes in the developed world.

A U.N. study released last year said Japan ranked behind all other industrialized nations in terms of empowerment of women, with 10.7 percent of senior corporate and political positions held by women, compared with 42 percent in the United States.

We're all familiar with this issue, here's the article the above excerpts were taken from. Check it out:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/01/AR2007030101654.html

leonmarino · 4 Mar 2007

That's just sad.. It seems so contradictory that a country once praised for its technological and scientific advancement is lagging behind so badly on corporate social responsibility issues.

yukio_michael · 5 Mar 2007

I've read that they are going to try to improve this in order to combat the labour crisis... It's a shame it takes a 'crisis' in order for Japan to move towards more equitable payment for its female workers...

It's so bad that some people are choosing to find work at businesses not operated by Japanese in order to gain more favourable treatment all around... (The Japanese workplace isn't exactly the most relaxed in the world...).

Alma · 5 Mar 2007

yukio_michael said:
(The Japanese workplace isn't exactly the most relaxed in the world...).

My Japanese friend is going back home now after 2 years working in Sarajevo. she is partially happy she's going home... but the fact that she is going to work there now is a scary and not so pleasant part...
these facts are just sad. i hope situation is going to be better.

Gentleman10 · 7 Mar 2007

Ok, now what? It's not like we can do anything about it by posting up an article... and so life moves on, lol.

yukio_michael · 7 Mar 2007

Gentleman10 said:
Ok, now what? It's not like we can do anything about it by posting up an article... and so life moves on, lol.

Hey, guess what? Believe it or not, not everyone is familiar with the working conditions for women in Japan, and posting a thread about it, as has been done before, raises awareness of that fact. That's what this forum is basically about.

It's a forum comprised mainly (if you ignore the black-hole that is the pop-music forums) of non-Japanese who seek to understand and discuss trends, past and present in Japan...

You're right, there is probably little that people outside of Japan can do about the problem... This isn't a human rights abuse... but that doesn't make your response even the slightest bit usefull.

In forum parlance, Thanks for nothing.

Gentleman10 · 7 Mar 2007

yukio_michael said:
Hey, guess what? Believe it or not, not everyone is familiar with the working conditions for women in Japan, and posting a thread about it, as has been done before, raises awareness of that fact. That's what this forum is basically about.

It's a forum comprised mainly (if you ignore the black-hole that is the pop-music forums) of non-Japanese who seek to understand and discuss trends, past and present in Japan...

You're right, there is probably little that people outside of Japan can do about the problem... This isn't a human rights abuse... but that doesn't make your response even the slightest bit usefull.

In forum parlance, Thanks for nothing.

I'm pretty sure this has been a topic on the forums for ages now, but this post came of rather random to me. In fact I crossed this article earlier today, lol.
Usually I want input from the person concerning the issue in addition to the article. I think that's what makes this forum interesting, so I don't think it a bad thing at all to provoke thoughts from people especially in a place where the objective is to discuss the subject with each other. And so I respond with "there's nothing we can do about it", wanting to know what others think. Never did I say that this was a dumb issue to post, and never did I say that this issue should be ignored.

...but if I'm just going to get hammered by people who try silencing me saying "I'm useless" b/c I don't butter their bread, well then I guess jref really isn't the group of open and willing-to-listen community I thought it was. I come here for intelligent conversation, and I come to listen, criticized, and be criticized, but not to have to read annoying scarcasm.

In forum parlance, quit being a jerk.

yukio_michael · 7 Mar 2007

Gentleman10 said:
In forum parlance, quit being a jerk.

You're typical of a troll, in that you post a flippant remark, punctuated by "lol", as if you disregarded the original post entirely or rather the worth of even replying to it, and then, when called out on this, give your long back-history and pledge to further great discussion, all the while crying foul that it was someone else, not yourself who was impeding actual discussion.

"So what? lol" in so many words, is not discussion.

Mods, you can delete this post, and my previous one if you like, as they're off topic.

Homerduff · 7 Mar 2007

Indeed it's a shame..

Women are a risk to pay for any biz. If they decide to get children you can't quont on them for a long time (in business length). As we all know, Japanese business world is very hard so they are also more severe to handle with these kind of situations, which is wrong ofcourse..

Gentleman10 · 7 Mar 2007

yukio_michael said:
You're typical of a troll, in that you post a flippant remark, punctuated by "lol", as if you disregarded the original post entirely or rather the worth of even replying to it, and then, when called out on this, give your long back-history and pledge to further great discussion, all the while crying foul that it was someone else, not yourself who was impeding actual discussion.

"So what? lol" in so many words, is not discussion.

Mods, you can delete this post, and my previous one if you like, as they're off topic.

A troll? oof... ok. I guess I shouldn't speak casually nor should I defend my posts (isn't that what arguing is?). Relax man, this is the internet. If you call me out on something you don't agree with, cool beans. But if you're going to start giving me crap (calling me a troll and saying my comments are useless), don't expect to get away with it, because I can be sarcastic too. I'm tired of this, so I insist we both stop bickeringing, let bygones be bygones, and end this nonsense now.

KirinMan · 7 Mar 2007

Gentleman10 said:
Ok, now what? It's not like we can do anything about it by posting up an article... and so life moves on, lol.

I am curious to know why you posted this, could you explain why you think that it's not like we can do anything about it?

Please don't misunderstand me I am just interested in finding out the motivation for or behind this comment, I am not interested in starting an argument about it either ok.

pipokun · 8 Mar 2007

Young working women oppose some house-wife privileges such as free pension/health care programs.

10.7 percent of senior corporate and political positions held by women

Other 30% young Japanese women have more chances to climb up corporate ladders than American women.

leonmarino · 8 Mar 2007

pipokun said:
Young working women oppose some house-wife privileges such as free pension/health care programs.

Could you explain this one in detail? Do housewifes have privileges working women do not have? How does it work?

pipokun said:
Other 30% young Japanese women have more chances to climb up corporate ladders than American women.

I don't get this one. Are you saying that women working in Japan have a better chance of climbing up the corporate ladder than women in the US? According to The Economist, 15% of corporate leaders in the US are female, whereas in Japan the percentage is 1%. (It's an interesting article by the way!!)

Gentleman10 · 8 Mar 2007

Obeika said:
I am curious to know why you posted this, could you explain why you think that it's not like we can do anything about it?
Please don't misunderstand me I am just interested in finding out the motivation for or behind this comment, I am not interested in starting an argument about it either ok.

In a nutshell, I meant want to know how Japanese people will solve this situation (if it will ever be solved). Of course people like us care about these issues. But apparently the Japanese don't care about it the way we do, and since that's where the root of this problem lies, it's rather difficult to solve it isn't it?
I think gender discrimination, especially in such a culturally rigid country like Japan is very difficult to overcome from our perspective. And in today's world where information and ideas are spread withing seconds, I think it is confusing to Japanese about how to solve the issue of "Having the homemakers not doing their homemaker jobs" so to speak (that's an awkward way to put it, sorry). When you have a country that has who have people essentially played the roles their ansectors have played for ages on end, I would think it especially difficult, and almost impossible for some things to change. I'm not saying Japan won't change, I'm just saying that if this change will occur, cultural values like these will take a very long time that I think only the Japanese themselves will choose to accept or reject without foreign input.
For reasons that I may be unable to understand as a person coming from a country founded only 200 years ago, age old countries like Japan obviously are sticklers for their culture. From a Japanese perspective, maybe to have other people impose on the culture and to tell them to change (aka us foreigners) would be rather annoying (granted I'm not Japnese, but maybe that's what some Japanese think). For some people, it may be hard to accept outside criticisms when things have been domestically working for all these years. The stereotypical man goes to work, the stereotypical woman takes care of the children, they have children, and the mom takes care of the kid. Although I don't agree with this way of thinking, apparently the Japanese to a large extend do, so if their system works, then why change? Stuff like this I'd imagine builds a strong resistance to foreign pressures on what we consider rights.

So, as I summed up, we can't really do anything about it (as foreigners), and life goes on (the Japanese seem to be changing their ideas on women's rights very very very slowly). Sorry if I didn't further explain, I was feeling lazy and didn't really want to elaborate at the time.

btw, out of curiosity, since when have Japanese women been arguing for their rights? Is this recent, or has it been a constant battle between Jp guys and girls?

yukio_michael · 8 Mar 2007

Gentleman10 said:
In a nutshell, I meant want to know how Japanese people will solve this situation (if it will ever be solved).

News reports show that in order to lure more women to the workplace (in order to solve the labour crisis), they will make attempts at more equitable pay & treatment... maybe. If they can solve it without making women equal partners, I'm sure they will prefer 'tradition' over equality.

http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/501050829/story.html

Gentleman10 · 8 Mar 2007

yukio_michael said:
News reports show that in order to lure more women to the workplace (in order to solve the labour crisis), they will make attempts at more equitable pay & treatment... maybe. If they can solve it without making women equal partners, I'm sure they will prefer 'tradition' over equality.

http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/501050829/story.html

I wonder if the people in power will actually put forth a good foot in getting something done this time. Otherwise it sounds like a half-assed attempt to give the people (women in this case) what they want. Guess we'll just have to wait and see how this plays out... :?

pipokun · 9 Mar 2007

leonmarino said:
Could you explain this one in detail? Do housewifes have privileges working women do not have? How does it work?I don't get this one. Are you saying that women working in Japan have a better chance of climbing up the corporate ladder than women in the US? According to The Economist, 15% of corporate leaders in the US are female, whereas in Japan the percentage is 1%. (It's an interesting article by the way!!)

You don't have to pay tax and social security money as long as you work for less than 1030,000JPY/year. So some people want to stay the dependent status.
About the ladder stuff, it is true that fewer Japanese women are in the senior positions than American now, but things have been changing.
The change from 15% to 30% might be more difficult than the one from 1% to 15%. So Japanese young women should be more ambitious.

btw, out of curiosity, since when have Japanese women been arguing for their rights? Is this recent, or has it been a constant battle between Jp guys and girls?

It is usually considered from the Taisho era.
Raicho Hiratsuka was the most famous figure.

KirinMan · 9 Mar 2007

You don't have to pay tax and social security money as long as you work for less than 1030,000JPY/year.

Actually depending on the business some will automatically take 10% off the top as income tax, it is then the responsibility of the individual to file taxes to get a tax return. If the individual does not file a return the government will NOT *tell* them that they have a refund coming, it is up to the individual to file the appropriate paper-work.

I just filed my taxes today and I am receiving a rather nice refund this year. (again)

leonmarino · 10 Mar 2007

pipokun said:
You don't have to pay tax and social security money as long as you work for less than 1030,000JPY/year. So some people want to stay the dependent status.

Interesting. Personally I don't like these kind of income brackets because apparently it gives the "wrong" incentive, as women will stay dependent of their husbands.

KirinMan · 10 Mar 2007

leonmarino said:
Interesting. Personally I don't like these kind of income brackets because apparently it gives the "wrong" incentive, as women will stay dependent of their husbands.

What do you mean by this? Here in Japan there is no system of filing taxes "jointly". Each wage earner is responsible for filing their own taxes, however most businesses do the taxes for their employee's so most people do not need to file themselves.

One other thing, even if a person has a refund coming to them and they file their own taxes themselves, the government here will NOT notify them that they are due a return. It is up to the individual to file to receive the return.

When you say "dependent of their husbands", do you mean independent of their husbands or dependent upon their husbands?

leonmarino · 10 Mar 2007

Obeika said:
What do you mean by this? Here in Japan there is no system of filing taxes "jointly". Each wage earner is responsible for filing their own taxes, however most businesses do the taxes for their employee's so most people do not need to file themselves.

If every income bracket was taxed equally, there would be no incentive to stay in one certain income bracket tax-wise. So there would be one reason less to stay home and the possibility to go to work and earn some money of your own would be wide open. That's what I think anyway, it sounds theoretical and might not work in practise because of cultural norms, but nevertheless I think it is a good idea to tax everyone equally.

Obeika said:
When you say "dependent of their husbands", do you mean independent of their husbands or dependent upon their husbands?

Um.. Dependent upon their husbands. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

undrentide · 10 Mar 2007

Obeika,

I think they are talking about the tax exemption for dependants.
ﾂ（窶｢}窶倍ﾅｽﾃ陳控ﾂ焦 fuyousha koujoﾂ）

If the wife a husband is earning less than a certain amount, she is regarded
as his dependant and when paying tax, he can get some exemption "because he has dependant family members".

Personally I don't think this system encourages wives to stay dependant, though. At least if this system is abolished, it will cause severe financial damages to many households while it would not give more opportunities for women to work more or work at all.

KirinMan · 10 Mar 2007

leonmarino said:
If every income bracket was taxed equally, there would be no incentive to stay in one certain income bracket tax-wise. So there would be one reason less to stay home and the possibility to go to work and earn some money of your own would be wide open. That's what I think anyway, it sounds theoretical and might not work in practise because of cultural norms, but nevertheless I think it is a good idea to tax everyone equally.

Actually from what I understand of the Japanese tax code people here are taxed equally, according to the income of the individual not the household.

Problem is that "working-mothers" earn much less than their male counter-parts so in factoring in the costs of child care and other expenses in the long run it is actually cheaper for one of the parents to stay home and look after the children than go through the hassles of finding a job, finding quality child care, going through the motions of getting up everyday making breakfast getting the "spouse", in most cases the husband, off to work, then getting the child either ready for school or child care and then going to work themselves.

Not to include the "after-work" WORK of making dinner, making sure the kids get their homework done, paying the bills, taking care of sick kids etc etc etc etc, everything that "families" need to do.

Um.. Dependent upon their husbands. Sorry for the misunderstanding

No problem, just checking to make sure, thanks for clarifying that.

I think they are talking about the tax exemption for dependants.
ﾂ（窶｢}窶倍ﾅｽﾃ陳控ﾂ焦 fuyousha koujoﾂ）

Only one parent may claim the dependent exemption, that is in a dual income family of course. Usually the "higher" wage earner takes the exemption. There are other advantages as well as the higher wage earner also has in many cases better health insurance benefits, usually under the Social Health Insurance coverage vs the National Health Insurance.

If the wife a husband is earning less than a certain amount, she is regarded
as his dependant and when paying tax, he can get some exemption "because he has dependant family members".

If one spouse is earning less than 103窶毒??) pretty sure about the amount there but not 100%, they are still considered dependents, however their wage is also taxed and they also have to file tax returns as well.

undrentide · 10 Mar 2007

Obeika said:
If one spouse is earning less than 103窶毒??) pretty sure about the amount there but not 100%, they are still considered dependents, however their wage is also taxed and they also have to file tax returns as well.

Of course I don't mean 100%, and I was talking about only husband side, of course the wives' wage is taxed. Sorry I did not bother to look up proper wordings in English for ﾂ控ﾂ焦 and not to go into details either.

KirinMan · 10 Mar 2007

undrentide said:
Of course I don't mean 100%, and I was talking about only husband side, of course the wives' wage is taxed. Sorry I did not bother to look up proper wordings in English for ﾂ控ﾂ焦 and not to go into details either.

Not a problem, I am the one who should work harder at Japanese, not you at English.

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