Does this sentence make sense?

MrWetsnow · 1 Mar 2004

Hi.

I wonder if someone can tell me if this sentence makes any sense?

kana version:

これはねずみがたべたばくががしいれたジャクがたてたいえのなかでです.

kanji version:

これは鼠が食べた麦芽が仕入れたジャクが建てた家の中でです。

Thank you kindly.
Dan

Elizabeth · 1 Mar 2004

It may be correct, but three がｓ in a sentence doesn't make sense to me.

MrWetsnow · 1 Mar 2004

It's sort of a sentence within a sentence... etc..

Elizabeth said:
It may be correct, but three がｓ in a sentence doesn't make sense to me.

What I am trying to translate is "The House that Jack Built".

So the little part I did is this:

This is the house that Jack built.

This is the malt
That lay in the house that Jack built.

This is the rat
That ate the malt
That lay in the house that Jack built.

Below are all three, maybe that would at least show what I am trying to do.

This is the house that Jack built.
これはジャクが建てた家です。

This is the malt
That lay in the house that Jack built.
これは麦芽が仕入れたジャクが建てた家の中でです。

This is the rat
That ate the malt
That lay in the house that Jack built.
これは鼠が食べた麦芽が仕入れたジャクが建てた家の中でです。

It started out easy enough, but I don't know if I can just nest the sentences in each other like I did...

Thank you for the reply.
Dan

Elizabeth · 1 Mar 2004

You can't simply translate the word order from English. To say

This is the rat that ate the malt that lay in the house that Jack built.

It needs to be something like "Jackがbuilt house (or house built by Jack)にいる(or lays) malt を ate Kore wa rat desu. Although it is certainly correct that modifying/descriptive clauses don't work nearly as well in Japanese as in English so this is all a bit speculative.

Elizabeth · 1 Mar 2004

By the way, sorry for any initially misleading advice.....

でも間違った意見を聞く必要はないですね。

MrWetsnow · 3 Mar 2004

I think this makes more sense...

This is the house that Jack built.

This is the malt
That lay in the house that Jack built.

This is the rat
That ate the malt
That lay in the house that Jack built.

(The full original is here: http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/daedljak.html)

After talking to my sensei in class, the following should make more sense:

(kana version
kanji version)

これはジャクがたてたいえです。
これはジャクが立てた家です。

これはジャクがたてたいえにあったばくがです。
これはジャクが立てた家にあった麦芽です。

これはジャクがたてたいえにあったばくがをたべたねずみです。
これはジャクが立てた家にあった麦芽を食べた鼠です。

What do you think? I'll post the entire thing here when I am done... maybe to save someone else the trouble later.

thanks
Dan

Elizabeth · 3 Mar 2004

MrWetsnow said:
This is the house that Jack built.

This is the malt
That lay in the house that Jack built.

This is the rat
That ate the malt
That lay in the house that Jack built.

(The full original is here: http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/daedljak.html)

After talking to my sensei in class, the following should make more sense:

(kana version
kanji version)

これはジャクがたてたいえです。
これはジャクが立てた家です。

これはジャクがたてたいえにあったばくがです。
これはジャクが立てた家にあった麦芽です。

これはジャクがたてたいえにあったばくがをたべたねずみです。
これはジャクが立てた家にあった麦芽を食べた鼠です。

What do you think? I'll post the entire thing here when I am done... maybe to save someone else the trouble later.

thanks
Dan

Yeah, that looks a lot more reasonable, although I'm not sure about 立てた for built. And what is the "atta"? Do you mean "ita" for a living thing?

MrWetsnow · 3 Mar 2004

yes... wrong kanji...

Elizabeth said:
Yeah, that looks a lot more reasonable, although I'm not sure about 立てた for built. And what is the "atta"? Do you mean "ita" for a living thing?

Ah! Good catch, wrong kanji. It should be: 建 (建てた).

あった - is ある. It refers to the malt (ばくが）, so I think that's right.

Elizabeth · 3 Mar 2004

MrWetsnow said:
Ah! Good catch, wrong kanji. It should be: 建 (建てた).

あった - is ある. It refers to the malt (ばくが）, so I think that's right.

It looks to me more like it should be referring to the rat (where is "lay" then?).....but I could be wrong. I don't have my kanji dictionary handy at the moment and I *think* they can both be used for construct, it's just that this tateru (建てる） is more common.

MrWetsnow · 3 Mar 2004

....

Elizabeth said:
It looks to me more like it should be referring to the rat (where is "lay" then?).....but I could be wrong. I don't have my kanji dictionary handy at the moment and I *think* they can both be used for construct, it's just that tateru is more common.

According to my dictionary, 立てる is to stand (something) up, to erect (something), while 建てる is to build, to construct. Subtle difference.

aru is replacing lay, "is" instead of "lay". I at first wanted to use 仕入れる, but my sensei said I can just use aru instead.

これはジャクがたてたいえにあったばくがです。
this is (built by jack house) in (which) was (lay) malt.

I am realizing though, that the further on I go, the more difficult it would to follow, as everything is getting put in the end. I wonder if there is a better way of doing.

Thanks
Dan

MrWetsnow · 3 Mar 2004

i found this...

While trying to find a real translation, I found this page:

Google Groups

Glad to see someone has already tried this. Anyway, I read up to the part I translated (don't want to get ahead of myself...) and it seems to match almost exactly with what I now have, which makes me think I am not way off base. So at least now I can continue to translate it further.

Thanks much for your help!
Dan

Elizabeth · 3 Mar 2004

MrWetsnow said:
これはジャクがたてたいえにあったばくがです。
this is (built by jack house) in (which) was (lay) malt.

OK--I should have read the initial post more closely. I thought you were trying to say where the rat lay.

Does this sentence make sense?

MrWetsnow

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Elizabeth

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MrWetsnow

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Elizabeth

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Elizabeth

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MrWetsnow

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Elizabeth

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MrWetsnow

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Elizabeth

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MrWetsnow

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MrWetsnow

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