do you want to ... ?

Poposhka · 26 May 2010

i'm fiddling around with Pimsleurs japanese i-iii and part of the course they make the distinction that: "If you say you want to do something you use the form: ...-tai desu", "but if you ask someone if they want to do something you don't use it, and use ...-masu ka" instead.

but elsewhere i've seen people use "...-tai desu ka" as part of asking if someone else wants to do something.

I'd like some elaboration on this, please

Half-n-Half · 26 May 2010

Another way to say it would be "-masen ka?" I try to think of the difference as the English equivalents "Do you want to..." and "Would you like to..." with the latter being politer. As far as I know it is just a difference in politeness, but I am far from proficient so take my information with a grain of salt.

Poposhka · 26 May 2010

so then is it grammatically, however not always socially, correct to use "-tai masu ka".

also: isn't "masen ka" used as an invitation to do something? Or can it be used to query someone if they are going to do something as with "masu ka"?

(person asking someone to come along to the movies)
do you want to go to the movies with me now?
ima watashi to eiga ni ikimasen ka

(person asking someone if they are off to the movies)
are you going to the movies now?
ima eiga ni ikimasu ka
OR(?)
ima eiga ni ikimasen ka

the latter doesn't seem to make sense if the asker asked casually if the other was going.. maybe if the asker wasn't sure if the askee was actually going? ("Weren't you supposed to be going to the movies now?") or could they be used interchangeably with no loss of connotation?

Elizabeth · 26 May 2010

Poposhka said:
ima eiga ni ikimasu ka
OR(?)
ima eiga ni ikimasen ka
the latter doesn't seem to make sense if the asker asked casually if the other was going.. maybe if the asker wasn't sure if the askee was actually going? ("Weren't you supposed to be going to the movies now?") or could they be used interchangeably with no loss of connotation?

As you say, the latter or "ima (ha) eigo wo mi ni ikimasenka?" is more like confirming it was something expected. Aren't you going to (see) a movie now ?

Certainly "Masen ka" could also function as an invitation. It depends on the tone of voice and situation for connotation, really.

Poposhka · 26 May 2010

cool thanks. that makes perfect sense

by the way, is it weird to use "movie" in the sense that "i'm going to a movie" (eiga ni ikimasu). Is it more natural to say "i'm going to see a movie" as you suggest (eiga o mi ni ikimasu). Would you say "eiga-ken ni ikimasu" in that case (or whatever movie theatre is)?

i know in swedish it wouldn't be natural, you would use the latter form (movie theatre)

oh, and what about "-tai masu ka"

Toritoribe · 26 May 2010

Pimsleur would want to say about the problem of the politeness, as HnH-san wrote.

Poposhka said:
so then is it grammatically, however not always socially, correct to use "-tai masu ka".

The polite form of the -tai form is "-tai desu," not "-tai masu," since it conjugates as an i-adjective.

Poposhka said:
also: isn't "masen ka" used as an invitation to do something? Or can it be used to query someone if they are going to do something as with "masu ka"?
(person asking someone to come along to the movies)
do you want to go to the movies with me now?
ima watashi to eiga ni ikimasen ka

When "-masen ka?" is used with volitional verbs, yes, it means "invitation."

Do you want to go to the movies with me now?
Korekara eiga ni ikimasen ka?/Korekara eiga wo mi ni ikimasen ka?

Wheares when used with non-volitional verbs, it's a simple question.

Ashita ame wa furimasen ka?
Won't it rain tomorrow?

This form can have a skeptical connotation compared with "Ashita ame ga furimasu ka?", though.

Poposhka said:
(person asking someone if they are off to the movies)
are you going to the movies now?
ima eiga ni ikimasu ka
OR(?)
ima eiga ni ikimasen ka

The latter means "invitation," as I wrote above. The former is asking the addressee's will, but can be interpreted also as "invitation" depending on the context. I would say "Eiga wo mi ni iku n desu ka?" instead.

Poposhka · 26 May 2010

yes sorry, i got my mind jumbled up with the masu/desu. thanks for the excellent replies, all.

Toritoribe · 26 May 2010

Poposhka said:
by the way, is it weird to use "movie" in the sense that "i'm going to a movie" (eiga ni ikimasu). Is it more natural to say "i'm going to see a movie" as you suggest (eiga o mi ni ikimasu). Would you say "eiga-ken ni ikimasu" in that case (or whatever movie theatre is)?

i know in swedish it wouldn't be natural, you would use the latter form (movie theatre)

Both are OK. "Eiga wo mi ni iku" would be more common, but "Eiga ni iku" is also used as same as "Puuru ni iku" means "Puuru ni oyogi ni iku" or "to go to a swimming pool to swim."

Glenn · 26 May 2010

Poposhka said:
"eiga-ken ni ikimasu"

And just in case this wasn't a typo: it should be eiga-kan.

Elizabeth · 26 May 2010

Toritoribe said:
Pimsleur would want to say about the problem of the politeness, as HnH-san wrote.
The polite form of the -tai form is "-tai desu," not "-tai masu," since it conjugates as an i-adjective.
When "-masen ka?" is used with volitional verbs, yes, it means "invitation."
Do you want to go to the movies with me now?
Korekara eiga ni ikimasen ka?/Korekara eiga wo mi ni ikimasen ka?
Wheares when used with non-volitional verbs, it's a simple question.
Ashita ame wa furimasen ka?
Won't it rain tomorrow?

"Masenka" can be thought of as an "suggestion" or "invitation" in the sense of "will not?" or "aren't/won't" - but I don't think necessarily an invitation to do the thing together (well...in very rare cases, but stil...) ;-).

Does anyone like the following lyric ?

なぜ、あなたはちょうど進まなくて、太陽を消しませんか。

Half-n-Half · 26 May 2010

Elizabeth said:
"Masenka" can be thought of as an "suggestion" or "invitation" in the sense of "will not?" or "aren't/won't" - but I don't think necessarily an invitation to do the thing together (well...in very rare cases, but stil...).
Does anyone like the following lyric ?
なぜ、あなたはちょうど進まなくて、太陽を消しませんか。

Hmm...then we were taught wrong because I learned it can be a polite invitation to go do something together. So like if you wanted to ask a girl out, "masen ka" was preferable to the "tai" form e.g. コーヒーを飲みに行きませんか？ If that's the case, you can probably get around it with 行きましょうか？ but I'm not sure.

Elizabeth · 27 May 2010

Half-n-Half said:
Hmm...then we were taught wrong because I learned it can be a polite invitation to go do something together. So like if you wanted to ask a girl out, "masen ka" was preferable to the "tai" form e.g. コーヒーを飲みに行きませんか？ If that's the case, you can probably get around it with 行きましょうか？ but I'm not sure.

Yes, it is polite and used for extending an invitation or making a suggestion in probably 99% of cases. I was trying to come up with exceptions where it may be applied outside of the speaker

～ましょうか is also for expressing an invitation, making a suggestion, shall we do?, or an offer to do something, shall I do? (with rising intonation).

Half-n-Half · 27 May 2010

Elizabeth said:
Yes, it is polite and used for extending an invitation or making a suggestion in probably 99% of cases. I was trying to come up with exceptions where it may be applied outside of the speaker
～ましょうか is also for expressing an invitation, making a suggestion, shall we do?, or an offer to do something, shall I do? (with rising intonation).

Oh OK I see what you were saying now. I took your comment in parenthesis as "it is an invitation to do the thing together in very rare cases." Thanks for clearing that up!

Half-n-Half · 27 May 2010

Oh, I can think of one such instance. For example:

友達になってくれませんか？
Would you be my friend?

Glenn · 27 May 2010

I'm pretty sure お茶しない？ means doing the thing together.

Elizabeth · 27 May 2010

Toritoribe said:
Pimsleur would want to say about the problem of the politeness, as HnH-san wrote.
The polite form of the -tai form is "-tai desu," not "-tai masu," since it conjugates as an i-adjective.
When "-masen ka?" is used with volitional verbs, yes, it means "invitation."

What about an example that is capable of both interpretations....say of おなか、減ってない？

1. Concerned that the other party isn't taking care (Hey you OK ? Is this a diet or eating disorder ?) -- (Suspect near 100% conviction something is wrong)

2. I'm the one starving -- let's look for something to buy and grab a bite to eat (10-50% conviction the other person is hungry, more likely it is a secret desire of the speaker)

3. Are you hungry ? -- What we really mean by the Simple question in English (50-50).

日本語は否定疑問文を好みますが、英語では日本語ほどには使いませんねえ。

Toritoribe · 27 May 2010

Elizabeth said:
"Masenka" can be thought of as an "suggestion" or "invitation" in the sense of "will not?" or "aren't/won't" - but I don't think necessarily an invitation to do the thing together (well...in very rare cases, but still...) ;-).

Right. If only the adressee is the doer, for instance honorifics or くれる/もらう as HnH-san exampled, ませんか means "suggestion" or "request."
e.g.
これ召し上がりませんか？
それ取ってもらえませんか？
こっちに来ませんか？

In these cases, ましょうか can't be used. "This form + ましょうか" is an archaic saying of "～でしょうか" or asking the third person's will/plan. Incidentally, it's always pronounced with falling intonation.
e.g.
（彼/彼女は）これ召し上がりましょうか（＝召し上がるでしょうか）
（彼/彼女に）それ取ってもらえましょうか（＝取ってもらえるでしょうか）
（彼/彼女は）こっちに来ましょうか（＝来るでしょうか）

Elizabeth said:
What about an example that is capable of both interpretations....say of おなか、減ってない？

1. Concerned that the other party isn't taking care (Hey you OK ? Is this a diet or eating disorder ?) -- (Suspect near 100% conviction something is wrong)

2. I'm the one starving -- let's look for something to buy and grab a bite to eat (10-50% conviction the other person is hungry, more likely it is a secret desire of the speaker)

3. Are you hungry ? -- What we really mean by the Simple question in English (50-50).

#3 would be the most common. お腹が減る is a non volitional.

Of course it can be used as the indirect invitation 何か食べない？ or #2.

Elizabeth said:
日本語は否定疑問文を好みますが、英語では日本語ほどには使いませんねえ。

確かに。例えば「それ取ってもらえますか？」だと結構強い命令に聞こえる可能性もありますからね。もちろん口調にもよるけど。

Elizabeth · 27 May 2010

Ok, well, I'm a bit confused. As one example, the clearest explanation of usage per a Japanese friend for 電気を消しませんか has been 消してください instead, so I will plan to continue with that to be safe. Even though they sound incredibly different to me.

Glenn · 27 May 2010

If I heard 電気を消しませんか I would interpret it to something similar to お茶しない？ I'd be a bit freaked out if a guy told it to me, but it could be cool if it were a good-looking woman. Someone please correct me if I'm interpreting this incorrectly. Please.

undrentide · 27 May 2010

Glenn said:
If I heard 電気を消しませんか I would interpret it to something similar to お茶しない？

... or even further.

Glenn said:
I'd be a bit freaked out if a guy told it to me, but it could be cool if it were a good-looking woman. Someone please correct me if I'm interpreting this incorrectly. Please.

Your interpretation is correct, and I'm glad I was not drinking tea when I read the first sentence of the above.

Glenn · 27 May 2010

Thanks for verifying that. And I'm glad you weren't drinking tea too (or anything else for that matter). I'd hate to be the reason you destroyed your computer.

Elizabeth · 28 May 2010

Glenn said:
If I heard 電気を消しませんか I would interpret it to something similar to お茶しない？ I'd be a bit freaked out if a guy told it to me, but it could be cool if it were a good-looking woman. Someone please correct me if I'm interpreting this incorrectly. Please.

I've only seen it in discussions of Sakura, global warming and candle light night. :sorry:

障害者職業センターの腹立つ職員！！ ( 社会教育 ) - うつ病のちーちゃんの訴え - Yahoo!ブログ

Toritoribe · 28 May 2010

Elizabeth said:
I've only seen it in discussions of Sakura, global warming and candle light night. :sorry:
障害者職業センターの腹立つ職員！！ ( 社会教育 ) - うつ病のちーちゃんの訴え - Yahoo!ブログ

The former would be more likely a suggestion; 電気を消す（という）のはどうですか？ than a request; 電気を消してください, and the latter is an invitation; 電気を消しましょう. I think the both have a connotation of some kind of "with me/us."

Elizabeth · 28 May 2010

Toritoribe said:
The former would be more likely a suggestion; 電気を消す（という）のはどうですか？ than a request; 電気を消してください

There wasn't really any context for understanding the episode (?), all I could tell was that is seemed to have been said in a not very nice way.

Thank you !!!

do you want to ... ?

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