Do/Can you find zen in Japan today?

nahadef · 27 Apr 2013

I came to Japan for a number of reasons, but one of them is that I enjoyed the study of zen so much. In university, and on my own, listening to the recordings of Alan Watts, learning about wabi/sabi etc. etc.

Then I came here. The key learning exercise I had was visiting Arashiyama in Kyoto, home of some of the most beautiful, pensive gardens in the world, and watching the boys of some junior high school field trip punch each other there. As much as the zen idea is of Japan, the torch has been carried by the world, far more than in the populace (or so is my argument for this thread). <I don't think it's so strange. Ukiyo-e is now reputable because of foreigners, and a lot of art and culture gains reputation in foreign countries. Even manga in Japan today has a more respectable reputation in the West than in Japan (not popularity, simply "respect").> I think it's much the same way that young Westerners loathe Shakespeare. Even when I started to like Shakespeare, I didn't want to admit it, for fear of coming across as a pretentious dick. You need to be in a certain circle of people to confidently state you love it.

So, the Japan I've visited has been totally devoid of zen, unless you consider passively staring into your cell phone a kind of zen (which I sort of do). But, the sort of deliberate, considered zen which made me really take notice of the country is something I just don't see.

What do you think?

ryuurui · 28 Apr 2013

You find Zen in self not in the outside world.

"I didn't want to admit it, for fear of coming across as a pretentious dick. You need to be in a certain circle of people to confidently state you love it."

Return to self. It is not important what others think. Some people on this forum think I am a pompous dick (or a frustrated foreigner with a boring life because I spoke up my mind about few things, and voiced my not very popular opinion. They also created certain image of me. But that is of no importance. Try to learn how to ignore the human weed, cultural trash, and aesthetical noise. It is all about a balance between what you think of yourself, and not crossing the boarders which your conscious is well aware of.

I dont like Shakaspeare, I find his books boring, but it doesnt mean that you are automatically a boring person or a puffed up *****. You are different and different things tickle your fancy. Why do you care what others think of you? Again, ignore whatever is around and be at peace. Then you will find Zen even in Harajuku's public toilet.

Now let us wait a 5 min, when some person, who lives according to what his neighbour says, comes in and rape my post apart. I put such posts occasionally when downloading pictures from my camera to my PC to kill time lol.

ryuurui · 28 Apr 2013

hahaha thats a nice picture. This is also why I rarely get involved in forum bonanza. Ah you know, the peace of mind comes with milage. Sometimes I cannot help to stick the pin in an open wound, but some wounds are too inviting to pass on the opportunity. I guess I need to work harder on finding Zen in self.

JeanB · 28 Apr 2013

Obviously it's important to have an internal source of self-esteem, otherwise you are letting other people determine your value. Which was not the topic here... Great job on hijacking the thread #sarcasm

But since we're on it, some people have the sense to talk about mutually interesting topic around others, know what topics not to bring up at family dinners, know not to talk over people, not to sidetrack conversations, to not stick pins in open wounds because they can.

And then there's people who are socially challenged, rude, and perhaps overall disliked, who die alone. (tear) If you don't care what people think, more power to you.

I've never been to Japan. Where I live, I know where to find a bonsai shop that also has a zen garden. Beautiful place! I wonder if in Japan it's similar; just need to know where to find it. I can only imagine how much nicer they can be in Japan.

Mike Cash · 28 Apr 2013

Define "zen".

tokkyo · 28 Apr 2013

I find Japan a very distracting place in many ways, and the people and culture seem so focused on material things and form over function that I don't think I could ever find any form of Zen there. Then again my goal has never been to practice Zen or work on my spirituality, and I like Japan for what it is. As you say, the world has kind of carried the torch for Japan in this respect, but in the process I think it's been over-exoticized a bit. Do we look at what the majority of people in a country believe and do everyday and say THAT is their culture? Or do we see culture as standards from times past, and standards which the people themselves believe represent them but which only an extreme minority still practice? I tend to go with the former, so the lack of "Zen" doesn't really surprise me.

PS Have you ever read anything by Alex Kerr??

nahadef · 28 Apr 2013

ryuurui said:
You find Zen in self not in the outside world.
"I didn't want to admit it, for fear of coming across as a pretentious dick. You need to be in a certain circle of people to confidently state you love it."
Return to self. It is not important what others think. Some people on this forum think I am a pompous dick (or a frustrated foreigner with a boring life because I spoke up my mind about few things, and voiced my not very popular opinion. They also created certain image of me. But that is of no importance. Try to learn how to ignore the human weed, cultural trash, and aesthetical noise. It is all about a balance between what you think of yourself, and not crossing the boarders which your conscious is well aware of.
I dont like Shakaspeare, I find his books boring, but it doesnt mean that you are automatically a boring person or a puffed up *****. You are different and different things tickle your fancy. Why do you care what others think of you? Again, ignore whatever is around and be at peace. Then you will find Zen even in Harajuku's public toilet.
Now let us wait a 5 min, when some person, who lives according to what his neighbour says, comes in and rape my post apart. I put such posts occasionally when downloading pictures from my camera to my PC to kill time lol.

I don't really care about liking Shakespeare publicly. I was talking about in high school when I wasn't as comfortable with myself. All the same, I try not to be a pretentious dick now, just cuz.

Anyway, yeah, truth is, there is zen in washing your dishes and eating lunch. It's everywhere. But, I guess I'm looking for a place where the concept is cultivated, and that seems uncommon here.

The opinion of others is sometimes important though, when we have a misshapen view of ourselves. Seeing ourselves from others perspective can teach us a lot <hint, hint>

Mike Cash said:
Define "zen".

Zen is not something to be defined, is it? As in the previous reply, how about Japan as a place that cultivates zen...

tokkyo said:
I find Japan a very distracting place in many ways, and the people and culture seem so focused on material things and form over function that I don't think I could ever find any form of Zen there. Then again my goal has never been to practice Zen or work on my spirituality, and I like Japan for what it is. As you say, the world has kind of carried the torch for Japan in this respect, but in the process I think it's been over-exoticized a bit. Do we look at what the majority of people in a country believe and do everyday and say THAT is their culture? Or do we see culture as standards from times past, and standards which the people themselves believe represent them but which only an extreme minority still practice? I tend to go with the former, so the lack of "Zen" doesn't really surprise me.
PS Have you ever read anything by Alex Kerr??

YES. I like Japan for what it is. That experience in the gardens in Kyoto was at least 7 years ago. I've moved well on. The reason I thought it worth asking:

I just finished reading Buddha by Tezuka (it's amazing). Lots of Buddhist 'path to enlightenment' and 'the way' talk in it, and was discussing it with my (Japanese) wife, and were discussing the differences between South Asian Buddhism and Japanese Buddhism. This led us to talking about Taoism, and she had heard the term, 道教, but it's meaning was vague. The long story short, similar to what I wrote in the first post, it's a little surprising to me that the Zen fusion of Tao and Buddhism plus native religion is something that is unique to Japan, and is famous around the world, but it isn't well-known or well-understood by the people here. It's really not the same, but as a Canadian, I hear about hockey from Japanese a dozen times a year, and though I hate the sport, I understand what people like about it. Zen is not as prevalent as hockey is in Canada

So I agree with your post tokkyo. The country has moved past that as a culture. While there is a good design sense that might tap into wabi/sabi, it really isn't part of the current culture, just a small minority.

I do find a bit of zen ideals in some of the traditional arts, like calligraphy and ikebana, and even in the Okinawan schools of karate that focus on movements and never spar. Some of these arts focus on movement and action over conscious thought.

I haven't read Alex Kerr. After finishing that Buddha manga, I dug into the Alan Watts I had, since it had been so many years. I last really read anything on the topic in my 20's, and would like to check it out again as I head to my 40's, to see if the perspectives hit me differently.

Grandpa Frank · 28 Apr 2013

For me...........

I think of "Zen" as being happy or at peace with myself. Between my Navy work and wild off hours drinking, dancing, and chasing women I did not have many Zen/calm moments. In Fukuoka , there were 4 parks and many temples I would visit for quiet time. By far the most wonderful memories I had were times with the little children around my apartment. A gaijin who spoke Japanese seem to fascinate them. I would sit and talk with them and answer all their questions. Making them laugh was so much fun. Watching Asian children at play and laughing always put me in a great mood. The large sculptured gardens always amazed me with their beauty.

Uncle Frank

Mike Cash · 28 Apr 2013

nahadef said:
Zen is not something to be defined, is it? As in the previous reply, how about Japan as a place that cultivates zen...

It certainly must be definable to some extent. Otherwise nobody could know what anybody else is talking about here. Either that or it's going to be nothing but a bunch of hippie oriental exoticism nonsense.

So....just what is it that is being called "zen" here? An approximation will serve in place of anything definitive.

(Now, oddly enough, I'm going to go outside and work on my motorcycle a little while).

nahadef · 28 Apr 2013

Mike Cash said:
It certainly must be definable to some extent. Otherwise nobody could know what anybody else is talking about here. Either that or it's going to be nothing but a bunch of hippie oriental exoticism nonsense.
So....just what is it that is being called "zen" here? An approximation will serve in place of anything definitive.
(Now, oddly enough, I'm going to go outside and work on my motorcycle a little while).

Strangely, without defining it, the conversation has had some progression.

I'm really not interested in defining zen, since it's elusive. If you like, you can define it yourself, and I'd be happy to weigh in on whether I agree with that or not. Since you decided to participate in the thread at all, I figure you have some notion of it, regardless of whether we're on the same page with it.

Mark of Zorro · 28 Apr 2013

Zen seems to be in the same boat as karate, katana and ninjas here as grandpa's plaid pants and wingtip shoes back home; out of fashion.

Mike Cash · 28 Apr 2013

nahadef said:
Strangely, without defining it, the conversation has had some progression.

I'm really not interested in defining zen, since it's elusive. If you like, you can define it yourself, and I'd be happy to weigh in on whether I agree with that or not. Since you decided to participate in the thread at all, I figure you have some notion of it, regardless of whether we're on the same page with it.

The thread seems to have started out on the premise that zen is something external and perceptible....hence discernible, discrete(*), and conceivably even tangible....hence describable and definable, at least to some extent. Others have brought up that zen is something internal and to be found within one's self. Perhaps it would be good to at least narrow it down to one of those two very different things.

I know bugger all about zen, except perhaps with reference to it coming up among the eightfold noble path and often being described as 心の統一 in Japanese sources I have studied (and explained in 仏教聖典 thusly: 正しい心の統一とは、誤った目的を持たず、智慧を明らかにするために、心を正しく静めて心の統一をすることである。). I sometimes wonder why people from the West seem to latch onto just that one detached and isolated chunk from Buddhism....that and meditation, anyway....while appearing to pay no attention to the rest of it. I don't think Gautama ever saw a Japanese rock garden, nor did any of the Chinese Buddhist schools from which Japan picked up on the zen thing.

Wikipedia has this (in part) to say about zen in Japan:

全ての人が例外なく自分自身の内面に本来そなえている仏性を再発見するために、坐禅と呼ぶ禅定の修行を継続するなかで、仏教的真理に直に接する体験を経ることを手段とし、その経験に基づいて新たな価値観を開拓することを目指す。そうして得た悟りから連想される智慧を以て生滅の因縁を明らかにし、次いで因縁を滅ぼして苦しみの六道を解脱して涅槃に至り、その後に一切の衆生を導くことを目的とする。そのため師家が修行者に面と向かって臨機応変に指導する以外には、言葉を使わずに直に本性を指し示す道であるとされる。

which doesn't resemble anything I ever see from Westerners talking about "zen", which seems to be all about mellowing themselves out and not a whole hell of a lot more.

-------------------------------------
(*) "discrete", not "discreet"

nahadef · 28 Apr 2013

Mike Cash said:
The thread seems to have started out on the premise that zen is something external and perceptible....hence discernible, discrete, and conceivably even tangible....hence describable and definable, at least to some extent. Others have brought up that zen is something internal and to be found within one's self. Perhaps it would be good to at least narrow it down to one of those two very different things.

There's a lot of overlap between zen and Taoism, and something they have in common is that there is an idea that we all have it until we look for it, at which point we don't. But, in Japan (and not so much in China, as far as I know, I'm not speaking authoritatively on this) there was a notion it could be taught in an indirect way. They can't teach you to find it, but they can teach you how not to look, at which point you would find it. And it has to be both inside and out. One of the root ideas is that we are part of the universe, so it's both.

I know bugger all about zen, except perhaps with reference to it coming up among the eightfold noble path and often being described as ﾂ心窶堙娯?慊斃?ｪ in Japanese sources I have studied (and explained in 窶｢ﾂｧ窶ｹﾂｳﾂ青ｹ窶弋 thusly: ﾂ青ｳ窶堋ｵ窶堋｢ﾂ心窶堙娯?慊斃?ｪ窶堙??堙債、ﾅ津ｫ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶禿壺?廬窶堙ｰﾅｽﾂ昶?堋ｽ窶堋ｸﾂ、窶冫ﾅ壇窶堙ｰ窶督ｾ窶堙ｧ窶堋ｩ窶堙俄?堋ｷ窶堙ｩ窶堋ｽ窶堙溪?堙可、ﾂ心窶堙ｰﾂ青ｳ窶堋ｵ窶堋ｭﾂ静??堙溪?堙?心窶堙娯?慊斃?ｪ窶堙ｰ窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩ窶堋ｱ窶堙??堙??堋?窶堙ｩﾂ。). I sometimes wonder why people from the West seem to latch onto just that one detached and isolated chunk from Buddhism....that and meditation, anyway....while appearing to pay no attention to the rest of it. I don't think Gautama ever saw a Japanese rock garden, nor did any of the Chinese Buddhist schools from which Japan picked up on the zen thing.

Zen in particular had become a buzzword in the West, but it's divorced from the actual Japanese meaning. Personally, there is a lot I like about the roots of Buddhism, particularly the parts not asking for faith. The eight fold path and such. And the difference in meaning between the Buddhist description of humans in the universe is an amazing contrast to the Christian one. In Japan though, Buddhism seems largely to have devolved into pageantry, and I can't find much pleasure in that. The core ideas though, I enjoy. And the Taoist ideas, I enjoy as a close relative of Zen.

The rock gardens are simply one of the Japanese expressions of the Zen philosophy, as with a lot of the minimalist aesthetics of sumi-e and calligraphy. Really, I think there have been pure forms of Christian expression divorced from the Middle Eastern roots. Japan was particularly hearty in developing its own variation.

Wikipedia has this (in part) to say about zen in Japan:
窶牢窶堙??堙個人窶堋ｪ窶氾｡ﾅ?O窶堙遺?堋ｭﾅｽﾂｩ窶｢ﾂｪﾅｽﾂｩﾂ身窶堙娯?愿?窶禿岩?堙俄?怒窶藩??堋ｻ窶堙遺?堋ｦ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ窶｢ﾂｧﾂ青ｫ窶堙ｰﾂ催??敖ｭﾅ陳ｩ窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩ窶堋ｽ窶堙溪?堙可、ﾂ債ｿ窶狼窶堙?津??堙披?狼窶凖ｨ窶堙個修ﾂ行窶堙ｰﾅ恥窶伉ｱ窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩ窶堙遺?堋ｩ窶堙?、窶｢ﾂｧ窶ｹﾂｳ窶廬ﾂ真窶板昶?堙俄?卍ｼ窶堙可静壺?堋ｷ窶堙ｩ窶佚固陳ｱ窶堙ｰﾅ弛窶堙ｩ窶堋ｱ窶堙??堙ｰﾅｽﾃｨ窶冓窶堙??堋ｵﾂ、窶堋ｻ窶堙固弛ﾅ陳ｱ窶堙嫁?ﾃｮ窶堙??堋｢窶堙?新窶堋ｽ窶堙遺?ｰﾂｿ窶冤ﾅ?ﾃ鞘?堙ｰﾅ?J窶佚ｱ窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩ窶堋ｱ窶堙??堙ｰ窶禿塲ｽw窶堋ｷﾂ。窶堋ｻ窶堋､窶堋ｵ窶堙??慊ｾ窶堋ｽﾅ津･窶堙ｨ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧﾋ廣窶?窶堋ｳ窶堙ｪ窶堙ｩ窶冫ﾅ壇窶堙ｰﾋ?遺?堙?青ｶ窶禿??堙戸?ｶ窶ｰﾂ鞘?堙ｰ窶督ｾ窶堙ｧ窶堋ｩ窶堙俄?堋ｵﾂ、ﾅｽﾅｸ窶堋｢窶堙??ｶ窶ｰﾂ鞘?堙ｰ窶禿??堙壺?堋ｵ窶堙??ｹﾃｪ窶堋ｵ窶堙昶?堙戸彁窶慊ｹ窶堙ｰ窶ｰﾃｰ窶僞窶堋ｵ窶堙?ｸﾂｸﾅｾﾃ鞘?堙嫁ｽﾅ?窶堙ｨﾂ、窶堋ｻ窶堙固津｣窶堙架?ｪﾂ静倪?堙個衆ﾂ青ｶ窶堙ｰ窶慊ｱ窶堋ｭ窶堋ｱ窶堙??堙ｰ窶禿壺?廬窶堙??堋ｷ窶堙ｩﾂ。窶堋ｻ窶堙娯?堋ｽ窶堙淒ｽt窶ｰﾃ??堋ｪﾂ修ﾂ行ﾅｽﾃ停?堙俄?禿岩?堙?津ｼ窶堋ｩ窶堙≫?堙??氾補?ｹ@窶ｰﾅｾ窶｢ﾃ鞘?堙嫁ｽw窶慊ｱ窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩﾋ?闇?O窶堙俄?堙債、ﾅ陳ｾ窶杯窶堙ｰﾅｽg窶堙ｭ窶堋ｸ窶堙俄?卍ｼ窶堙俄?怒ﾂ青ｫ窶堙ｰﾅｽw窶堋ｵﾅｽﾂｦ窶堋ｷ窶慊ｹ窶堙??堋?窶堙ｩ窶堙??堋ｳ窶堙ｪ窶堙ｩﾂ。
which doesn't resemble anything I ever see from Westerners talking about "zen", which seems to be all about mellowing themselves out and not a whole hell of a lot more.

I'll have to take more time to translate that. For how much Japanese I can read, that's not a context I easily grasp. That last thing, about "without using words" is a common idea in Zen. As much as some Westerners might equate it with mellowing, and I think it's also used as a bliss meaning, like nirvana is. i don't see those as appropriate usages. I see much more of living in balance, and trying to do more than think (except as much as thinking is a kind of doing). Cooking a fine meal and enjoying the process (or better yet, not thinking about it) is zen. Cooking a fine meal for someone else and worrying what they might think is not. It's not about living an ascetic lifestyle, which is how a lot of Buddhism gets interpreted (ie. the begging monk).

I can try to put a better finger on it, but I don't considerate mellowness, except in that there is a harmony of lifestyle going on, which has less stress in it.

Sorry to ramble, hopefully this is clear. It's too long for me to comb through for glaring errors. Dinner's on!

jeywalk · 10 May 2013

nahadef said:
I came to Japan for a number of reasons, but one of them is that I enjoyed the study of zen so much. In university, and on my own, listening to the recordings of Alan Watts, learning about wabi/sabi etc. etc.

Just wondering.. which university teaches zen and wabi sabi?

nahadef · 10 May 2013

jeywalk said:
Just wondering.. which university teaches zen and wabi sabi?

Lots of them. Not as a major, just as a class you can take. I did it at OCAD in Toronto, and I know another who did it at Carleton in Ottawa.

jeywalk · 10 May 2013

nahadef said:
I did it at OCAD in Toronto, and I know another who did it at Carleton in Ottawa.

Ahh thanks for the info! I live right by OCAD - took some courses there as well. What are some examples of Wabi Sabi that you see in Japan?

nahadef · 10 May 2013

Hmmm. First you need to assume I know what it means

The gardens in Arashiyama, Kyoto embody something connected to it. The design is unobtrusive, natural, but totally man-made.
Those are all preserved though.

In daily life, it's not there at all. One of my biggest disappointment is contemporary Japanese architecture. The current fad is for cubic boxes. They may cast interesting shadows, but they are not the positive side of modernism. Still, some people maintain impeccable gardens there, which make up for the overall design.

This is normal now, do you see wabi sabi?

I think something about it is beautiful, but I don't know it's wabi sabi.

jeywalk · 11 May 2013

Hmm good point. I do like the cubic / box like architecture. I agree it's not really wabi sabi.

I think wabi sabi might exist more in traditional Japanese craftsmanship, like pottery, knife-making, tableware, etc.

Have you had a chance to explore that side of Japan?

nahadef · 11 May 2013

I haven't explored knife-making, but I've seen pottery in a number of regions.

Possibly one area for it these days is in cafe culture. There are what might be labeled hipster cafes in even the remotest areas. Floor space is divided asymmetrically, and many tables are out of view from any one seat. Some are cluttered, but most are relatively sparse, and natural materials are used as much as possible.

jeywalk · 11 May 2013

nahadef said:
Floor space is divided asymmetrically, and many tables are out of view from any one seat. Some are cluttered, but most are relatively sparse, and natural materials are used as much as possible.

Do you think it was designed like that on purpose? Any images you can share with us?

nahadef · 12 May 2013

jeywalk said:
Do you think it was designed like that on purpose? Any images you can share with us?

I wish I did, but I don't. There is a very big cafe culture here though, based on borrowing styles from around the world.

I'm sure there is some consciousness to the design, whether or not it includes wabi-sabi or not.

Mike Cash · 16 May 2014

nahadef said:
I'll have to take more time to translate that.

I know you're a busy guy, but since it has been a little over a year I'm curious if that has been sufficient time for reading (or translating) that paragraph. Not that you're under any obligation to do so, of course, but I got the impression you intended to get around to it some time. If you're no longer interested, that's fine.

nahadef · 16 May 2014

After your rampage of insults at me yesterday, since deleted, no, I really don't have time to play fight with you. Translate it yourself if it's a pressing matter.

Majestic · 16 May 2014

I know its an old thread, but speaking of zen in Japan, I thought this guy's story was very interesting.

I think I found out about him from somebody on this forum, maybe. Anyway, fascinating life choice.

Muho Noelke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Life at a Japanese Zen monastery - YouTube

Mike Cash · 16 May 2014

nahadef said:
After your rampage of insults at me yesterday, since deleted, no, I really don't have time to play fight with you. Translate it yourself if it's a pressing matter.

I'm afraid the deleting makes it impossible to show the "rampage of insults" remark to be unwarranted. How convenient for you.

I was trying to continue a civil discussion in a civil manner. It is you who has been continuously trying to start fights, pretty much ever since your "White Privilege" thread, which I believe is where I first let you know I'm not impressed by how long you (or anyone else, including myself) has been in Japan. You've had a bug up your butt ever since.

No doubt this will be deleted and the thread locked, with your false assertion about a rampage of insults left intact. I've never seen a guy get more preferential treatment from moderators than you.

Do/Can you find zen in Japan today?

Quietly exploding

品天龍涙

品天龍涙

後輩

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

先輩

Quietly exploding

Sempai

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Quietly exploding

先輩

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Quietly exploding

後輩

Quietly exploding

後輩

Quietly exploding

後輩

Quietly exploding

後輩

Quietly exploding

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Quietly exploding

先輩

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Similar threads