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Sorry, I didn't mean to be pedantic or to sound lecture-ish, but, in fairness, you did say, very simply, "Atheism isn't a belief. It's the lack thereof."
This definition is mistaken. It comes at "atheism" from the denigrating point of view of the believer, who tends to regard "atheism" as a deficiency, as a lack of what any person would be better off having. That, I think we agree, is not the case.
This is an important issue for every atheist. If it were not, I would not have elaborated on it in such detail. From an accurate definition of atheism comes an accurate understanding of atheism. Those who will accept a poor definiton of atheism will possess a poor understanding.
The best way I can explain this, is point out we are NOT talking about "belief" in the sense of a way of thinking rather than "religious belief." Atheists are without religious belief. They are "without theism." It does NOT mean that they have determined there is no God, even though some may state that to be their opinion. Atheism is not a religious belief.
If something has not been shown or proven to exist, one cannot say that the very statement that it does not exist means that now physically exists.
You're mistaking precision of language in a proper context for pedantry. I suggest you go back and read George Smith's exacting explanation of the term "atheism," if you would like to have a fuller and better sense of the word's essential meaning.
a simple glance at Wikipedia will reveal that the term has a wide range of meanings, the most common and oldest being the active belief that no god exists.
Why squabble over the meticulous details?
Why squabble over the meticulous details?
Ah, the first time I read through the quotation I hadn't realized that George Smith was the world's ultimate authority on the English language. All cleared up now. Thanks.
Well, if you don't count hearing how you are going to hell all the time (which I consider quite offensive in the first place), then most of the situations I've run into are more angering rather than discrimination. My mom was not happy initially when she found out I didn't believe in any "divine super friend" and my grandmother has decided I'm going to burn in hell.
I haven't yet run into any discrimination yet. I've run into a lot of assumptions when I was in Japan that I'm Christian just because I'm American, but no problems when I was there when they found out I was Atheist. Then again, I live in California so... things tend to be a bit less close minded here. A bit less that is.
However, at the same time I don't openly go around saying I don't believe in any "religion" either. So it might simply not be a topic. I'm not sure if that is simply a precaution or it just doesn't come up.
To quote an interesting poll referenced in the God Delusion by Dawkins, Atheists were rated lower than Muslims in America on their chance to become the next American president. Considering the borderline hate against Islamic belief in America, that says a LOT.
Bellevance; said:"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master -- that's all."
-- Lewis Carroll
Are we getting pedantic about being pedantic?
If the dominant culture in a country oppresses and disdains all subcultures equally, then no one subculture--atheism, for example--is being singled out as different from, or less privileged than, the others. In this sense, atheists wouldn't experience any particular discrimination based on their distinct position with respect to religious belief. Instead, their diminished standing within the dominant culture would be based on their rejection of mainstream ways of thinking and worshipping--rather than on their own convictions, which would simply be irrelevant.
So... what does this prove? There still remains discrimination, and a strong amount.
There is a gap in the logic, and a lacking of information here.
For the purposes of this meager discussion, that may be what it comes down to, a lack of information. I've never visited an Islamic country. But I do think that, on the surface anyway, Remixer's distinction is worth acknowledging.
I also think that, wherever it occurs, religious discrimination against the godless is in no way based on "ultimately minute differences." Talk about naive claims. The differences in outlook and in consequent treatment of others are profoundly divisive and incompatible.
It is nice to know that when you cannot count on most "intelligent" people in here to understand a point made, Bellevance will.
Hail Bellevance!
All I think Remixer is trying to say is that, in some Islamic cultures, the discrimination that must be suffered by atheists is not based on their atheism. ... in certain Islamic countries, no one in the dominant culture cares about what an atheist thinks any more than he cares about what a Baptist or a witch thinks.
I understand the point and it's probably true at an official level. But I'm not sure if it's true on a personal level. To quote him, "everyone here must have a religion".
When I say that discrimination is based on "ultimately minute differences" this looking at the issue of discrimination as a whole. While the result, and damage from discrimination can be massive and devastating, the aspects and differences that such discrimination is ultimately very small when comparing too human beings in comparison to similarities.
I'm sure it differs from person to person and country to country in some regard naturally, but as you stated, there are massive gaps between the "official" and "personal" area in regards to an issue like this. I don't think you will find any official discrimination really listed against atheists as in regards to directed laws against them. Ultimately that point is somewhat mute in my opinion anyway as I have stated.