Difference between Pseudo futurum and tentative form

bikikifs · 5 Jul 2010

volitional formとPseudo futurumとtentative form、何か差がありますか?
それらを推量形と言うと思いますが、把握できません。それぞれを日本語で何と言いますか?
皆さま、教えてもらえないでしょうか?

bakaKanadajin · 5 Jul 2010

By volitional form do you mean （よ）う form?
Like, どっかに行こうか？

What's pseudo futurum and tentative?
I've never heard of those terms being used before to describe Japanese grammar, could you please provide some examples?

Toritoribe · 5 Jul 2010

Maybe the OP was talking about some functions of the volutional form.

意思: 一所懸命日本語を勉強しよう。(I shall study Japanese hard.)
勧誘: 一緒に勉強しよう。(Let's study together.)
推量: 彼ならきっと効率よく勉強しよう。(He will study effectively.)
条件: どんなに勉強しようと、上手にならないだろう。(Even if I study hard, I won't be good at it.)

Is so, this form is generally called 意思形 or 『未然形 + 助動詞「（よ）う」』 in Japanese. (The third one, 推量, is a bit archaic expression. The form 勉強するだろう is commonly used in modern Japanese.)

bakaKanadajin · 5 Jul 2010

Ahh I see!

With 推量形、as you said, するだろう is more common, much like your last example 上手にならないだろう。I tend to feel the same way.

However as it's 'probable', would the English translation perhaps be more like (He will probably study effectively) or (He might study effectively)?
The 'will' alone feels a little too certain.

I often forget the plain conditional usage of volitional that you've pointed out Toritoribesan, I usually say どんなに何かをしようとしても

Is しようとしても very different from しようと?

どんなに急ごうと間に合わないだろう。
どんなに急ごうとしても間に合わないだろう。

The second has a more 'hypothetical' feel to it. （？）

undrentide · 5 Jul 2010

bakaKanadajin said:
Is しようとしても very different from しようと?

どんなに急ごうと間に合わないだろう。
どんなに急ごうとしても間に合わないだろう。

The second has a more 'hypothetical' feel to it. （？）

Yes, they are different.

どんなに急ごうと how much you hurry,
どんなに急ごうとしても how much you try to hurry,

～しようと can be rephrased as ～しようとも、～しても、～したところで、

Toritoribe · 6 Jul 2010

bakaKanadajin said:
Is しようとしても very different from しようと?

As undrentide-san pointed out, ～しようとしても is a conditional of ～しようとする or "to try to do," and often connotes that the trial fails.

どんなに勉強しようとしても、できなかった。
No matter how much I tried to study, I couldn't (e.g. because of sleepiness).

On the other hand, the main clause following ～しようと conditional expresses the state after the thing is done, as same as ～しても.

どんなに勉強しようと（＝勉強しても）、上手にならなかった。
No matter how much I studied, I couldn't become good at it.

bakaKanadajin · 6 Jul 2010

undrentide said:
Yes, they are different.

どんなに急ごうと how much you hurry,
どんなに急ごうとしても how much you try to hurry,

～しようと can be rephrased as ～しようとも、～しても、～したところで、

Ah, yes I see it now.
I felt it but couldn't pin point that 'hypothetical'-ness in English but you got it bang-on. The volitional plus [to suru] is as you said 'try to'.

I stopped studying grammar formally a little while back because basically I just try to read books now but I think I have to go back and review some of this stuff! I try to go on 'feeling' alone lately but having the theory plus English equivalents solid and drilled into the brain helps smooth things out a lot at times like these.

Incidentally, could しようとしても also be rephrased as しようとしたところで・しようとしたって？They feel very similar much like しようと resembles したところで、 as you mentioned.

bakaKanadajin · 6 Jul 2010

Toritoribe said:
As undrentide-san pointed out, ～しようとしても is a conditional of ～しようとする or "to try to do," and often connotes that the trial fails.

どんなに勉強しようとしても、できなかった。
No matter how much I tried to study, I couldn't (e.g. because of sleepiness).

On the other hand, the main clause following ～しようと conditional expresses the state after the thing is done, as same as ～しても.

どんなに勉強しようと（＝勉強しても）、上手にならなかった。
No matter how much I studied, I couldn't become good at it.

Thanks very much that was very clear.
I understand why my students like to revert to simple past and have a hard time grasping conditional structures at first. As you pointed out simply changing the clause to past tense in Japanese gives you the resulting state of the failed attempt (or whatever the first clause was) without need for anything resembling 'would have could have should have' etc. Although, I believe you can add だろう for emphasis along those lines.

Toritoribe · 6 Jul 2010

bakaKanadajin said:
Incidentally, could しようとしても also be rephrased as しようとしたところで・しようとしたって？They feel very similar much like しようと resembles したところで、 as you mentioned.

しようとしたところで conditinal can't be used for a fact in the past. That's the only difference, I suppose.

○どんなに勉強しようとしたところで、多分できないだろう。(guess for the future)
○どんなに勉強しようとしたところで、多分できなかっただろう。(guess for the past)

×どんなに勉強しようとしたところで、できなかった。 (fact in the past)
○どんなに勉強しようとしても、できなかった。(fact in the past)
○どんなに勉強しようとしたって、できなかった。(fact in the past)

bakaKanadajin · 6 Jul 2010

Toritoribe said:
しようとしたところで conditinal can't be used for a fact in the past. That's the only difference, I suppose.

○どんなに勉強しようとしたところで、多分できないだろう。(guess for the future)
○どんなに勉強しようとしたところで、多分できなかっただろう。(guess for the past)

×どんなに勉強しようとしたところで、できなかった。 (fact in the past)
○どんなに勉強しようとしても、できなかった。(fact in the past)
○どんなに勉強しようとしたって、できなかった。(fact in the past)

分かりました。
確かにこのバツの例は少し違和感がありますよね。

Thanks very much everyone for your explanations！
Very informative.

・・・ and I hope it was also informative for the OP・・

Difference between Pseudo futurum and tentative form

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