cultural difference excusing bad behaviour?

[Goldiegirl]

I am having difficulty in trying to write this, but here goes....

I belong to another forum, and it is about foreign women married to Japanese. I am currently being kind of "shunned" because of a post I made. To make a long story short a woman had an argument with her husband and he got mad and turned on all the lights, faucets, bath tub, and room heaters after she left for work. She came home to find all of these things on and running. They are all claiming it's cultural. I said the guy was vindictive and I would be careful, but truly if he were my husband he would have been kicked out or I would've have left. I wouldn't put up with mean behavior no matter what; it doesn't matter that he is Japanese, to me what mattered was that he was jerk. They jumped all over me and said I was stupid to think of ending a relationship over something that trivial! Trivial, I don't think so. They live in Tokyo in an apartment building; what if he started a fire, or flooded the other apartments, all just to teach her a lesson. A couple women e/mailed me privately and agreed, but they wouldn't post it for everyone to see. Now, I don't bother too much with that group. They use the "cultural difference" excuse to encourage women to stay in bad relationships with Japanese guys. I get the feeling that some of these women are stuck and don't want others to get out, like the old saying misery loves company.

What has me curious is this. Do any of you who are in an "international" marriage or relationship tolerate being treated in a way that you find uncomfortable or outside the norm just because there is a cultural difference or do you say something or try to change yourself or your partner. Did you agree on some of the differences before or just as they come up?

Maybe someone can word this better than I did, so I hope you all can understand!

 

[Mars Man]

Well, I think I can understand to a fairly high degree...but I cannot be absolutely sure of that.

From my experience, and my position (along with my studies along the lines of love, marriage, and sex...as no one need be reminded...hee, hee, hee....) I say that both opinions are essentially correct, with your take on it having the upper hand.

I have seen, and heard of such similar 'rash' reactions by the male Japanese at times. I would not say that it is common at all, and in fact, any person can respond in that emotion, but the actions are diffferent..and that's the cultural part. An American or European or Iraqi or Indian male would all have taken a different course of action, I would tend to think (reflecting the different cultures) but the emotion would be the same. I put it as being a kind of 'black mail'-like act on the emotion of revenge.

While cultural differences should be studied, considered and analyized, in international marriages, there should be no joint following of either one or the other by demand or set agreement, in my opinion. A relationship is a relationship, and culture has little to do with that matter...nature has a whole lot to do with it.

Now I would guess that the argument had been about money, basically. I would say the reaction by the husband had been very immature. I do not know the age, nor any other circumstances, so cannot say anything about that, but the wife is free to take several courses--one of which is to break off the relationship. (and we know that marriage is simply a social construct, so no big deal, in a way) Taking an overly binary approach may not be so recommendable, though, either.

 

[nice gaijin]

so, this guy was being petty and vindictive, and turning on all the appliances was just his pseudo-passive-aggressive way of showing it... As Mars Man said, culture may be able to explain the action, but it does not excuse the sentiment. If this is this guy's chosen method of conflict resolution, it shows that there's a greater personal issue lurking under the surface, and there are three ways to deal with it: she can give up and leave him, she can help him realize that this isn't a mature way to handle problems and try to help him work on it, or she can put up with it and hope they never argue again. The first and last options both strike me as silly. Hopefully there were some real reasons she decided to marry this guy, and this bad attitude is most definitely a character flaw, not a cultural quirk.

A strong marriage doesn't come through never fighting, but being able to survive the tough times. I certainly hope you wouldn't just leave your husband over an argument, Goldiegirl, but it seems that these women are indeed using "culture" as a blanket excuse for things that they are unable or unwilling to understand.

 

[Chi65]

In case, it was done in the home, that both have to pay for, it was anyhow a shot into his own foot as well. . .also, or even only, maybe, having to pay for the surplus energy, hehe.
Thats in fact not a cultural issue. . .for both sides. What is far more important in my opinion, is the reason for the conflict, before this happend. Because it does not say anything about, who may have been right, before he exploded his way. . .

And this is something, that none of us knows.

 

[Goldiegirl]

The conflict I mentioned was because the wife left the hall light on for her husband and he wanted her to apologize for not turning it off. She explained that she left if turned on for him. He wanted her to admit to forgetting to turn the light off, and apologize to him. I don't see his behaviour as cultural, I see it as mean spirited.

And no, I wouldn't leave my husband over a petty argument. We have had our fair share of them, but we don't resort to name calling or vindictive acts. I just think this guy could've hurt so many people, that I find scary. I can't imagine my husband even thinking like that. That mans thinking is what is frightening.

I wonder though if people in "international" relationships though, do put up or accept certain issues or behaviours that they otherwise wouldn't. For instance, this is small, but I do find it irritating, my husband NEVER calls me from work while in Japan. He says it would be rude to interrupt his work with his personal life. I don't pester him about it because I was told that is just the way it is here. (of course I could have been told an untruth here!) However, if I lived in Japan and had to deal with that everyday, I think I might want a call at the very least if he was going to be late.

 

[Half-n-Half]

I don't really see a problem with what you posted. That does seem mean spirited and could point to signs in the future for the relationship. It's pretty childish IMHO. I fail to see how that is cultural. Are they saying it is usual for Japanese males to leave on all the appliances to "teach you a lesson" if you leave one on? Perhaps you should put your original post here; they might not have liked the wording.

 

[Mars Man]

Yeah, I kind of somehow didn't get to your real question, actually--regarding international couples.

I may not be the typical person, however, because I strive to 'family culture' over and against local culture--regardless of where local may be. I have insisted that if we wanted to, we could practice general Indian culture in the house and relationship, or general Mexican culture. We have any choice in the world because this is, in fact the world.

Now I had run-ins with my wife's sisters when they both lived here in the same house after we had just married because I didn't adhere to some Japanese religio-cultural matters. I got remarks such as, 'this is Japan' to which I returned the likes of, ' before that, this is the earth.'

The social pressure to comform to social norms here, it goes without saying, is rather great, in many ways, and as the little lady aged, she unfortunately dropped some of her earlier, more carefree ways of thinking for a more conservative framing of outlook. That has raised some problems, because I have pretty much maintained my outlook--for example, our boys are neither Japanese, nor American...they are world citizens, and for that very reason, they need not refrain from testing the system for fairness, universality, and logistical pragmaticness. (in other words, it is sometimes good to be the nail that sticks out)

This now causes problems between the little lady and I...we have gene carriers which we both wish to prune and adjust for full adulthood.

My resolution would be that in an international marriage, both members should strive to set aside that which can be shown to be less functional, adhere to that which is, and to keep in mind that there are many cultures in the world, and any can be adopted for the sake of being international.

The problem you mention sounds to me a little beyond cultural matters, perhaps, and more like the common male/female average difference gap thing. (regarding the understanding of the reason for the lights to have been on, and the tendency to need mechanical reasons for the guy, emotional for the girl)

 

[Haruspex]

My opinion on this:
I am me, an individual before being the member of any family, cultural group, nation or whatever. If someone hurts my pride and freedom, I usually tell him to F.O. and Die.
Complete obedience is the end of everything good. If I were a woman, and some husband would piss me off, next morning I'd wake up early, and include a one-way ticket back home with his breakfast.
Someone who has a little self respect does not try to force his native ways one someone else. Do as you wish is what its all about. They're together probably because they like each other, so hell, if thats so, who gives a fook about minor issues. People with small character and small hearts should just die. An in-group is all about the in-group. When you're the part of it, its natural to say that: "Yeah, everything goes for us, let the rest of the world sink or swim!" In my opinion, arguments over such small issues shouldn't go further than sarcastic remarks.

 

[Goldiegirl]

Mars Man, I really like that you see your kids as "world citizens". I can appreciate that concept. It's good to challenge what the "norms" are sometimes. I don't think that just because something is considered the standard means it should remain the standard and go unchallenged. I guess that is what gets me so riled up with these women, they just accept being treated poorly by their husbands and in-laws and say that's how the Japanese are and you just have to deal with it. I know you can't change everything and a fair balance is best, but just because something was doesn't mean it has to remain. I have to say that my mother-in-law although she accepts me, isn't overly fond of me, and that's ok. She finds it strange that I don't eat meat or fish and that my husband makes me breakfast, but she would NEVER treat me poorly. She tries hard to meet me in the middle and I try and do the same for her. She really makes an effort to be more flexible and I make the effort to be more understanding. The other side is that my husband wouldn't allow his family to treat me poorly either, he would defend me, and has. That makes a big difference as well. Many of these women's husbands don't say anything to family and friends that talk or treat their foreign wives poorly. I think that is a shame and I feel sorry for them.

 

[magevampjoe]

Regardless of culture, this case shows high possibilities of turning really sour later into the relationship. If he goes like that about a hall light, then what would he be like over an unflushed toilet (by accident), or answering the phone to another guy.

As early as possible she needs to think about ending the relationship, as he could turn into a really controlling guy, and she may not have any freedom.

BTW, even though I am young, I understand this sort of thing because it happened to my Mum (not inter-culture) and the guy became really crazy. She left him, remarried, gave birth to me and is still living with the same loving man 19 years after meeting him.

Culture is a cruddy excuse; it is the man's fault. He is a pre-control freak. She needs to end it.

 

[Anohito]

Goldiegirl: I can't say for sure, but there may be something else going on with that forum. I know from experience that forums, usenet newsgroups, etc. can sometimes be dominated by an in-group or clique. These cliques can be quite unscrupulous in dealing with those they consider "outsiders." Could it be that the vehemence of their reaction had little to do with the merits of the case you were making, and much more to do with opposing dominant members of the clique?

 

[Annubis]

More and more I'm starting to think I am half Japanese. I never make personal calls from work. Work is work... my personal life is left outside... I was surprised when I could have a cup of tea while I was working instead of during a break... As an English teacher, I am urged to share my personal life with my students... this of course had made me feel uncomfortable, but in a way it has ended up making me feel more relaxed.

About the relationships, it all depends on how people deal with a crisis. In my case I would say sorry to him about leaving the light on, because obviously he couldn't understand my intentions... so I would truely be sorry for his misunderstanding... and still, I would turn the light on for him every night... hehe... if he pulled a tantrum like that... I would make him sleep on the balcony or in the backyard for a night. Or tell him to go to an internet cafe and sleep. I would not tolerate the unecological act. Of course, this is me.

 

[Goldiegirl]

Anohito, thanks for the post. I really think you are right. I am like an outsider now. One woman just wrote that even if your Japanese husband is wrong, you should eat dirt or humble pie. It's the culture of Japan. I was shocked by that advice. I don't think you have to argue about every little thing that your partner does that irritates you or was wrong, you are two different people living together and that automatically sets you up for disagreements. For me to hold it in and not say something, would make me feel worse and probably lash out more. This woman said it makes life happier for him to be right all the time because then there are no arguments. I can't believe anyone could be happy in that kind of relationship.