Counters

[charusu]

Hi everybody!

I have some kanji flashcards that also have some sample compound words. I know that the counter for people is 'ri' (sorry, I'm not on a computer with Japanese support), on my flashcards it lists 'one person' as 'hito-ri' and 'two persons' as 'futa-ri' - yet the flashcards list 'three persons' as 'san-nin'.

Any idea as to why this might be? 'Hito-ri' and 'futa-ri' are obviously the on'yomi with a counter, and 'san-nin' are the two on'yomi - but why isn't 'three persons' translated as 'san-ri'?

Thanks!

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

"hitori" and "futari" are actually the exception to the rule that people are counted with "nin".

 

[Glenn]

They're also remnants of old Japanese. り was the old counter for people, like つ was the old counter for objects (the newer ones are にん and こ, respectively). Also, か was for days, now mostly taken over by にち, and it seems ち/ぢ was for years, now taken over by さい (notable exceptions being 二十歳（はたち） and 三十路（みそじ）, though I'm not sure why 路 is in there. Must be a rebus).

 

[Toritoribe]

The counter for people is not り but たり. ;-)

人（たり）の意味 - goo国語辞書

ひとり(ひとたり → ひとり) ふたり(ふたたり → ふたり) みたり よったり いつたり むたり ななたり やたり ここのたり とたり


According to this site, じ was from ち that was a general counter for numbers more than 20(the equivalent to つ for numbers less than 10), and the kanji for ち/じ was originally 箇/個.

ところで、「ち」 というのはナンでしょう。これはですね、「ひとつ」～「ここのつ」 の "つ" に対応する、20以上の数詞に付く 「接尾辞」 なのです。漢字では、「箇・個」 が宛てられてきました。

20個 「はたち」
30個 「みそち、みそぢ」
↓
90個 「ここのそぢ」
100個 「ももち」
200個 「ふたももち」
↓
900個 「*ここのほぢ」

というふうに勘定するんですね。
後世になるほど 「ち」 が 「ぢ」 と濁ることが多くなります。現代語では 「じ」 と発音するのが普通で、「路」 を宛てられるようになってしまいました。

Incidentally, みそじ meant just "thirty", not only for age, in old Japanese.

〔補説〕 中古までは、物の数を数えるのにも用いられた

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[Glenn]

Well, I guess that makes me half right. Thanks for the clarification!