Combining two sentences pieces with adverbs

Hello all, I am new to these forums (as you can see by my post count) and stumbled upon them via google search on a japanese language discussion forum...

I have a few questions regarding my title (basically combining two sentences into one, as you can in english with a comma), here goes... (BTW, I do not know any kanji, so all my japanese text will be in Hiragana and Romaji)

I want to combine two sentences into one, for example:
After seeing the picture, I went home. (picture as in a picture at the museum...)
e ni ato de mimasu ga, uchi ni ikimasu.
え に あと で みます が、 うち に いきます。
Would this be a correct way of phrasing this?

Also, in the second part, what about changing it to this:
After seeing the picture, I decided I wanted to go home.

I have a difficulty trying to figure out how to translate where there are two verbs following each other in a sentence. In english it's easy (at least for me, heh)

I decided I wanted to go home...
So would we start with home, put the directional ni, then put the two verbs at the end? I know there are probably different forms of the verbs I need to use here (probably not covered until later in the book...) I looked around and I think I saw that the te form should be used here... but what do I know? I also noticed that the tai suffix adds the 'want' part to a verb. Saying I want to go is ikimasutai, I think? That having been said...

Would it be:

e ni ato de mimasu ga, uchi ni ikimasutai kimemashite.
え に あと で みます が， うち に いきますたい きめまして。

What would this translate at?

ArdenD said:

Hello all, I am new to these forums (as you can see by my post count) and stumbled upon them via google search on a japanese language discussion forum...

Click to expand...

</modesty>It's one of the better ones<modesty>

ArdenD said:

I have a few questions regarding my title (basically combining two sentences into one, as you can in english with a comma), here goes...

I want to combine two sentences into one, for example:
After seeing the picture, I went home. (picture as in a picture at the museum...)
e ni ato de mimasu ga, uchi ni ikimasu.
え に あと で みます が、 うち に いきます。
Would this be a correct way of phrasing this?

Click to expand...

No. You should really start from a step back and write the two sentences that you are going to combine first.

e o mimasu.
えをみます。
uchi ni kaerimasu.
うちにかえります。

The simplest way to combine two sentences to mean that you do one thing then another is to use the -te form connective.

e o mite, uchi ni kaerimasu.
えをみて、うちにかえります。

Note that with kaerimasu you can usually tell it's 'uchi ni' from the context so you can just have.

e o mite, kaerimasu.
えをみて、かえります。

Ok... Let me get this straight then...

えおみて，（うちに）かえります
is literally: I saw the picture, then I returned (home) ?

What if it was changed to seeing a person?
Say for instance:
After I saw my friend, we decided to go to the movies.

ともだちにみて、(we decided to) えいがおみます。
I know the second part currently says: (we go to) see the movie. How can I change that to say that we decided to go? Also, I know we learned in class how to say that we are going somewhere with a purpose. How would this change the impact of the sentence if I change the second part to:
えいがおみにいきます
Also, do you have to put (after I/we) in the first sentence? I know for most sentences it is understood in context, but does it, or can it be emphasized? Adding あとで does it hurt the sentence?

Thanks!
Arden

ArdenD said:

Ok... Let me get this straight then...

えおみて，（うちに）かえります
is literally: I saw the picture, then I returned (home) ?

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It's not past tense.

It's literally: I'll see the picture, then I'll go home.
P.S. Wrong を

ArdenD said:

After I saw my friend, we decided to go to the movies.

ともだちにみて、(we decided to) えいがおみます。

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Hmm, how about
ともだちにあって、えいがをみにいこうときまりました。
but I'm not too sure that it's clear the 'deciding' is done _after_ you meet your friend(s).

ArdenD said:

えいがおみにいきます

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Wrong を again.

ArdenD said:

Adding あとで does it hurt the sentence?

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Depends where you add it.
ともだちにあいました。あとでえいがをみにいこうときまりました。
... naah. It doesn't really look right to me.

Oops, sorry about the wrong Os, I was rushing in typing in the kana, wasn't paying attention to the fact that it uses the default O, just like when you type in wa it uses wa and not ha...

Anyway, I have a couple questions:

First, about: みにいこうときまりました

I asked my teacher in class about combining two verbs in the second sentence, and he recommended using こと, you have いこう here which have similar uses. When would I use which in this instance?

EDICT lists こと as : thing; matter; fact; circumstances; business; reason; experience;
and いこう as : intention; idea; inclination;
If this was your use of みにいこうときまりました <--- the と in there connecting み+ に + いこう + と + action verb shows that you took the action of going to see the film for a (reason, an idea, with an inclination)? That means you decided to?

He said that to want to go see you could use:

わたしはいくたいことえいがをみます。
is it also right to say:
わたしはいくたいことえいがをみにいきます。 ?
Do these both say: I want to go see the movie?

If you wanted to say "I decided that I want to go see the movie" how would you add the decision?

[EDIT]

Looks like I may have misunderstood the みにいこうときまりました after all *grin*... what exactly does that translate as? きめる being the verb for to decide, みにいこうと means what exactly? How does it split up so I understand? (Please, don't try and confuse me more, the class I'm in is bad enough as it is )

Thanks!
Arden

ArdenD said:

Looks like I may have misunderstood the みにいこうときまりました after all *grin*... what exactly does that translate as? きめる being the verb for to decide, みにいこうと means what exactly? How does it split up so I understand?

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決る(io); 決まる(P) 【きまる】 (v5r) to be decided; to be settled; to look good in (clothes)

but you're right it should have been

決める 【きめる】 (v1) to decide; (P)

み に いこう と きめました
見 に 行こう と 決めました

行こう being the volitional (行く[よう/こと]にしよう)

So:
えいが を み に いこう と きめました
is (I/we) decided to go see the movie?

So combining everything I've gotten here, my sentence would be:

あと で ともだち に あいまて、えいが を み に いこう と きめました。
After meeting my friend(s), (I/we) decided to go see the movie.

Is this correct?

ArdenD said:

あと で ともだち に あいまて、えいが を み に いこう と きめました。
After meeting my friend(s), (I/we) decided to go see the movie.

Is this correct?

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You're still sticking 'ato de' where it doesn't belong (that would be "After that I met my friends and we decided to go see a movie.") and that's not how you combine 'ます' form verbs.

Generally the -て form is used with the plain (dictionary) forms. In the few times when it is used with the 'ます' form then it would be まして. e.g. あけましておめでとうございます

Ok, so am I correct in assuming the rest of the sentence is correct?

Plus, if I remove the あと で then do I have:

(I) met my friend(s), and (I/we) decided to go see the movie.
?

What if you wanted to specify that the second segment was specifically after the first? Say, you want to definitely specify that the action of going to the movies was decided after meeting your friend(s) (even though it is understood by context here)?

By the way, I really appreciate all the help you are offering here.

[EDIT]

In an aside, could you alternately phrase the sentence like this to use the あとで ?
あとでともだちにあいますが、 .... using ga as the sentence connector, thus leaving あいめる in the -masu form? I want to understand what is acceptable usage and what isn't.

Arden

ArdenD said:

Ok, so am I correct in assuming the rest of the sentence is correct?

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Except for what I mentioned, probably.

ArdenD said:

Say, you want to definitely specify that the action of going to the movies was decided after meeting your friend(s) (even though it is understood by context here)?

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Still in _one_ sentence?

ArdenD said:

In an aside, could you alternately phrase the sentence like this to use the あとで ?
あとでともだちにあいますが、 .... using ga as the sentence connector, thus leaving あいめる in the -masu form?

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It isn't 'あいめる' it's 'あう'
あとで at the start of the sentence means the sentence takes place (will take place) after something unspecified before the sentence..

Ok, then can you use それから instead? Use this as the sentence connector? Or can it only go at the end of a sentence?

For instance:

ともだち に あいまて、それから えいが を み に いこう と きめました。

Meaning: (I) meet my friend(s), and then (I/we) decided to go see the movie.

?

ArdenD said:

Ok, then can you use それから instead? Use this as the sentence connector? Or can it only go at the end of a sentence?

For instance:

ともだち に あいまて、それから えいが を み に いこう と きめました。

Meaning: (I) meet my friend(s), and then (I/we) decided to go see the movie.

?

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There is no "あいまて" !! ともだちにあって would be what you're looking for. I personally think it's clear enough without anything given that one basic supposition or usage of a "te" sentence is to connect two sentences that describe successive actions or events. 'Sore kara' isn't only used at the end of sentences, but it somehow comes off to me slightly odd, almost like a period of time had passed between when you met and the decision to go to the movies or gives the impression of a logical connection between meeting and the decision. We met and then after that (finally) we decided to see a movie or we met for the intention of deciding.

He said that to want to go see you could use:

わたしはいくたいことえいがをみます。
is it also right to say:
わたしはいくたいことえいがをみにいきます。 ?
Do these both say: I want to go see the movie?

If you wanted to say "I decided that I want to go see the movie" how would you add the decision?

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There's a possiblity your professor may be instructing in their Kyushuu/Okinawan dialect. "いくたい窶 or 窶?#12371;と窶 + object not being standard Japanese as far as I know. If "ikutai" is indeed some variation of 'want to go,' the translation of the 2nd becomes "I will go to the movie that I want to to go to" :? and the first "I'll see the film that I want to see" :? This may account for the "aimate" mistake as well ? At any rate, for normal Japanese....

I want to go see the movie" is :
"いえがをみにいきたいです"

I've decided I want to go see the movie :
えいがをみにいきたいときめました。

I want to go see the movie" is :
"いえがをみにいきたいです"

I've decided I want to go see the movie :
えいがをみにいきたいときめました。

Click to expand...

ok, that makes sense... So adding: to + kimemashita (no kana writing capabilities at work, so...) adds the decision element to the wanting to go.

There's a possiblity your professor may be instructing in their Kyushuu/Okinawan dialect. "いくたい窶 or 窶?#12371;と窶 + object not being standard Japanese as far as I know.

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I looked on Jim Breen's website and saw this:
たい (adj) want or would like to do something (suffix on masu stem of verbs)
So it is in EDICT, if anything that accounts for something. No idea on if it's dialect specific.

If "ikutai" is indeed some variation of 'want to go,'

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Ikutai itself on Jim Breen's WWWJDIC:
行き度い 【いきたい】 want to go

I'll be back when I get more time. I'm not finished yet, and I really really appreciate all the help here.

Thanks
Arden

Ikutai itself on Jim Breen's WWWJDIC:
行き度い 【いきたい】 want to go

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And better known as ikitai, hardly ever seen around with that 度い kanji in tow however.

"Ikutai itself on Jim Breen's WWWJDIC:
行き度い 【いきたい】 want to go"

Now *THAT* was a brain fart on my part, I was thinking ikitai the entire time, and wrote ikutai. Don't ask me why

Anyway...

ともだち に あって、 それから えいが を み に いきたい と きめました。

Now... is THIS correct in phrasing:
(I) meet my friend(s), and then (I/we) decided (I/we) wanted to go see the movie.

It's a shame, all those "tai" verbs sounded like Kyuushuu dialect, as Elizabeth said!

The main problem is that you don't say "we decided we wanted..." in Japanese, I'm pretty sure. "Kimeru" is like considering a bunch of alternatives and then choosing one of them. It's not quite right there. That's because in the English phrase you aren't deciding TO want something, you are thinking about what you want and firming up your opinions. It's a subtle difference. The Japanese sounds like "we decided to want to go and see a movie" or something.

I think you would say "えいが を みる こと に きめました" if you thought about what to do and then decided to choose the option of going to a movie.

There are various ways of saying it, I guess. "Eiga wo mitakute natte, sou shimashita" (we felt like going to the movies, so that's what we did) or "eiga wo mi ni ikou to omoimashita" (we thought "let's go to the movies")

"I decided I wanted to go to the movies" might be "nani ga yaritai to kangaete, eiga o miru koto ni kimemashita" (I thought about what I wanted to do, and decided to see a movie) or "nani ga yaritai to kangaete, eiga demo miyou ka to omoimashita" (I thought about what I wanted to do, and thought well, why not go see a movie?), or maybe "nani ga yaritai to kangaete, yappari eiga mitai na to omoimashita" (I thought about what I wanted to do, and I thought you know, I really would like to see a movie)

Bear in mind also that in choosing to say "eiga wo mi ni ikitai" rather than "eiga wo mitai" you may be giving a slight emphasis to the process of going to see it. That's not really that important, but it may give more of a feeling of "get out of the house and do something" on top of the aspect of just seeing the movie.

When you connect your two sentences there, the way you have done it gives a slight impression that you went to the movie because you had met your friend, to my mind. Like say you happened to run into them after not seeing them for a while, so you thought "let's do something together". That's because that "te" form can be a kind of weak causative link. More neutral might be "attara" (once I had met my friend). However this is quite subtle as well, so I wouldn't worry about it much. It might just be my impression anyway.

Bear in mind also that in choosing to say "eiga wo mi ni ikitai" rather than "eiga wo mitai" you may be giving a slight emphasis to the process of going to see it.

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Yes, we went over this in class, going somewhere with a purpose, combining the verb stem + ni + ikimasu/kimasu/kaerimasu, in essence this is a more advanced version of that pattern (which we probably won't get into... )

It's very possible he's teaching in a specific dialect, as I said before, I have no idea, and I possibly should ask him.

"eiga wo mi ni ikou to omoimashita" (we thought "let's go to the movies")

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Ok, this confused me before when I asked Paul about ikou, he said it was the volitional. We went over this form in class, and in a formal situation, this would be ikimashou, right?

In this same sense, couldn't you change 'thought' to 'decided'? We had a sentence like this earlier in this thread, using: eiga wo mi ni ikou to kimemashita. Doesn't that mean '(we) decided "let's go to the movies"' ?

The Japanese sounds like "we decided to want to go and see a movie" or something.

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These alternatives are good to know. The original sentence sounded off in English as well of course since the normal pattern is deciding with a friend what you'd like to do from a range of possibilities, not whether you honestly want to do one or any of them or not.

When you connect your two sentences there, the way you have done it gives a slight impression that you went to the movie because you had met your friend, to my mind. Like say you happened to run into them after not seeing them for a while, so you thought "let's do something together". That's because that "te" form can be a kind of weak causative link. More neutral might be "attara" (once I had met my friend). However this is quite subtle as well, so I wouldn't worry about it much. It might just be my impression anyway.

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'Attara' is also the only conditional you can use for unexpected or accidental meetings/happenings, but of course it isn't necessarily the case across all contexts. It's very quick and easy and common, 'te' I suppose forces the listener to connect a little more whether the two events are sequentially related.

ArdenD said:

It's very possible he's teaching in a specific dialect, as I said before, I have no idea, and I possibly should ask him.

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No it's just that in Kyuushuu they stick "tai" on the end of sentences sometimes, it's not to do with "wanting to". It was just that things like "iku tai" sound like that dialect, but I was just joking.

ArdenD said:

Ok, this confused me before when I asked Paul about ikou, he said it was the volitional. We went over this form in class, and in a formal situation, this would be ikimashou, right?

In this same sense, couldn't you change 'thought' to 'decided'? We had a sentence like this earlier in this thread, using: eiga wo mi ni ikou to kimemashita. Doesn't that mean '(we) decided "let's go to the movies"' ?

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Yeah that's OK I think. Ikou (or ikimashou at the end of a polite sentence) means "let's go", but it's a bit broader than the English might suggest. For instance you can say "watashi to asobimashou" but you can't say "let's play with me" in English.

"Tomodachi ni attara" has two meanings depending on context - "if I meet a friend" and "once I have met my friend". Anyway my point was just that translations for example sentences can differ a lot depending on the context.

Thank you so much, ALL of you. I'm starting to understand, really I am

There are certain concepts about how the Japanese language works that I have difficulty adapting to, because I've been so ingrained with how the English language works.

Again, thank you all.
Arden