Capital Punishment

Where do you stand on Capital Punishment?


  • Total voters
    12
More innocents will die without the death penalty.

I have yet to read your links, but I can tell you right now that I am against the idea of human sacrifice. If killing one innocent person here will somehow save 100 somewhere else, I won't do it unless that innocent person asks me to. And I won't take the risk of killing someone convicted who might have been convicted by mistake.

It all amounts to human sacrifice if I am reading your words correctly.

---------- Post added at 07:09 ---------- Previous post was at 07:04 ----------

Brian Lewis, you seem to suffer from an over-abundance of faith in your fellow man. You could seriously use some healthy skepticism.

A person that has proven that they don't care about the law and have killed and would kill again provided similar circumstances.

You are too sure they always have the right person, or that the killing was not somehow justified (as you keep justifying killling!!!)
 
I'm undecided. Some criminals (e.g., Osama bin Laden) deserve execution

Would you mind me asking why people who have murdered in mass numbers deserve to die more than, say, the guy who murdered my friend's older sister? (This is an actual question, I'm not being a douche) Although it makes perfect sense that the extent to which a crime is committed proportionately affects the extent to which the criminal is punished, I still wonder if executing people like Osama and Hitler is more of an impulsive, emotional response than it is of justice.


Yet, I've seen too many miscarriages in our system of justice to trust the idea of irrevocable decisions.

I mentioned a few posts back that I think that we shouldn't let anomalies such as misjudgements in the judicial system affect the way that we handle criminals across the board, so long as we can be sure that we're correct far more often than not. Another honest question: Why is it that you consider death to be so much more of an irrevocable punishment than imprisoning a person for a huge amount of their life, if not for it's entirety?

Not only can you not compensate for wrongly taking any amount of time out of a person's life by giving it back, it has a lot of effects on the way they'll be able to function if and when they are out of jail. A lot of long-time prisoners are afraid, and don't know what to do when they're out. Many of them would prefer to stay in prison because they've grown too accustomed to, and even dependent on their ways of life in prison.

Keep in mind -- I support maximum punishment for maximum severity of crime. Don't think I'm advocating for either side here. It just seems like you might not have considered that both punishments take something away from a person that can never be given back. An extended period of time in prison effectively cripples a person's ability to function in a social world.

Then you don't know much about the Christian Bible. And I don't mean just the Old Testament. The central event of the New Testament was the execution of Jesus by one of the most prolonged and horrible means ever devised -- and somehow this was supposed to be a good thing for mankind.
As history shows, the convoluted and unfathomable logic of Christianity can be used to justify any sort of violence against fellow humans. Almost any other example would better support your point.

Please, let's not make this about religion. Macrobiotic has already shown us how to derail a topic entirely by rejecting or demonizing someone's point of view solely by virtue of their beliefs.

I'll have you know that I'm religious myself, but I make a point, especially while discussing politics/morality/issues like this, to leave any and all secular influences aside, and I can only hope that non-religious people can do the same with the modern negative connotation attached to religious beliefs as a whole. I'm sure we can agree that my posts alone could serve as sufficient evidence that religion doesn't necessarily have to replace logic and critical thinking.
 
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"The firing squads of China, the short and effective trials as well as the almost immediate execution is a role model. China has maybe the worlds best legal system in some aspects. Light years more efficient and civilized than the US."
I would bet big money that if you were actually charged with a capital crime, you'd rather be tried in the US. "Short and effective trials" means lack of due process and rules of evidence. "Immediate execution" means there is no right of appeal of trial court errors.
And don't tell me they don't make errors in China. To err is human. . . .

---------- Post added at 14:20 ---------- Previous post was at 14:01 ----------

"Would you mind me asking why people who have murdered in mass numbers deserve to die more than, say, the guy who murdered my friend's older sister? (This is an actual question, I'm not being a douche) Although it makes perfect sense that the extent to which a crime is committed proportionately affects to the extent to which the criminal is punished, I still wonder if executing people like Osama and Hitler is more of an impulsive, emotional response than it is of justice."

Because mass murderers kill more human beings. Same for serial killers. Both categories are likely to consist of psychopaths, who have no conscience and show no remorse. There's no hope of rehabilitating them. And yes, my view is in part emotional: the need for justice and peace of mind that these monsters won't kill again.

"I mentioned a few posts back that I think that we shouldn't let anomalies such as misjudgements in the judicial system affect the way that we handle criminals across the board, so long as we can be sure that we're correct far more often than not. Another honest question: Why is it that you consider death to be so much more of an irrevocable punishment than imprisoning a person for a huge amount of their life, if not for it's entirety?"

Being correct "more often than not" only means that 51 percent of the people we execute were actually guilty. An error rate of up to 49 percent in our justice system is NOT acceptable to me, even if we were just talking about money as opposed to human life.

A life sentence is not irrevocable. Newly-available DNA evidence has freed a number of people on death row or serving life sentences. Who knows what other kind of evidence science may discover? Yes, a person who's wrongly served years in prison has lost those years of his life. But at least he's still alive to sue the state that convicted him for compensation.

As for religion, another poster expressed surprise that Christians would support the death penalty. I was pointing out that a religion that postulates bloody violence in this life and an eternity of torture for non-believers in the next is a bad example for a humane view of criminal justice. To one who thinks eternal torture is a just punishment for a mere thought crime, executing a person for an actual crime should raise no moral/ethical issues.
 
God created humans in His own image, i.e., giving them God's own propensity for violence. When humans give in to this God-instilled bent, God is jealous and declares they have sinned. So He knocks up a human woman and decrees that His son (who is actually God himself) shall be bloodily executed to atone for the sins of humans. Or was God really paying for His own sin in creating a violent species? The whole story has confused me since age 15.
I can guess why. Since you just misquoted, I suspect you have read it wrong. Try reading slower next time.

You are too sure they always have the right person, or that the killing was not somehow justified (as you keep justifying killling!!!)
That is what millions of dollars in court expenses and appeals are for right? There are types of homicide that are justifiable, however those don't incur the death penalty, so your point is rather moot. The term "cold blooded killer" is usually used when referring to a case of criminal homicide, or murder 1. It's not a crime of passion, it's not happenstance. Some one stalked a human being and waited for an opportunity to end their life.

As for religion, another poster expressed surprise that Christians would support the death penalty. I was pointing out that a religion that postulates bloody violence in this life and an eternity of torture for non-believers in the next is a bad example for a humane view of criminal justice. To one who thinks eternal torture is a just punishment for a mere thought crime, executing a person for an actual crime should raise no moral/ethical issues.
Is that interpretation based on watching the History Channel, or children's stories? Real scholars actually read the books they criticise. Why do people feel exempt from that when it comes to religious text?
 
Because mass murderers kill more human beings. Same for serial killers.

I know it's an obvious answer at least at first, but could you deeply, logically explain why someone who's killed multiple people deserves to die more than a person who's only killed one if you were asked the question? In either case, their crimes made them murderers. Why should someone who's committed the ultimate crime by malevolently taking one human life not be repaid with the same ultimate punishment that someone who's committed the crime several times would receive?


And yes, my view is in part emotional: the need for justice and peace of mind that these monsters won't kill again.

Supporting emotion in the law system is the kind of thing that leads to tighter gun control because some psycho shoots up a school, or a ban on alcohol because drunk parents abuse their children. Also keep in mind that most crimes like these are committed out of emotion as well. How can you justify the allowance of emotion in deciding someone's fate if you support a "fair" system? Emotion in itself is a logical fallacy and basically translates to impulse.


Being correct "more often than not" only means that 51 percent of the people we execute were actually guilty. An error rate of up to 49 percent in our justice system is NOT acceptable to me, even if we were just talking about money as opposed to human life.

You seem to have missed a pretty important keyword in my post, because no one here is saying "more often than not". I said way more often than not. To think that even a whole percent of all the people convicted of crimes in this country might be innocent is a little heart-breaking, but so long as we know that the numbers are proportionately low (and I mean low), I see no reason to spare millions of people justice because a small handful of them may in fact be innocent. Beyond that, the investigation and judicial systems are constantly evolving. With the advent of new technology and new peaks in culture, we're able to refine our processes to be a lot more sure of what we're convicting people for.


A life sentence is not irrevocable.

Unless the accused person has only spent an insignificant amount of time serving a sentence they didn't deserve, it most certainly is irrevocable. Consider the impact that serving a mere 7 years in a life sentence would do to a person who is innocent. If they were young, then there is a great chance that may not have been able to start/finish their higher education, and if they had never had a meaningful job before, they're essentially left with no means to have a career since no one wants to hire someone for a good job with no experience or degree, and college costs are so high. It would be like being asked to place well in a race which you were taken out of half way through and kept out until it is almost over. You'd basically be starting from scratch, only without the luxuries of being younger and having a social life.


Newly-available DNA evidence has freed a number of people on death row or serving life sentences. Who knows what other kind of evidence science may discover?

The ability to identify DNA is incredibly new. If anything, it's never been a better time to stop doubting the legal system as much as we do. Like I said above, the advent of new technology allows us to be a lot more conclusive in our decisions than we've ever been, and that's why an old generation of prisoners are benefiting from it.


Yes, a person who's wrongly served years in prison has lost those years of his life. But at least he's still alive to sue the state that convicted him for compensation.

Unless the government can make someone younger, provide intensive social classes and ensure that the accidental conviction won't show up on background checks (which it will), then the state cannot compensate for what they've taken from the person.


As for religion, another poster expressed surprise that Christians would support the death penalty. I was pointing out that a religion that postulates bloody violence in this life and an eternity of torture for non-believers in the next is a bad example for a humane view of criminal justice. To one who thinks eternal torture is a just punishment for a mere thought crime, executing a person for an actual crime should raise no moral/ethical issues.

Your thoughts on Christianity are pretty clear (and pretty wrong, by the way), and definitely not helpful in a thread like this. (not only talking to you, by the way) I created this thread so we could discuss the meaning of punishment, revenge and justice, and the way they should or shouldn't relate to the death penalty. Religion has no place in a discussion about the philosophy of the rights and wrongs about the death penalty, and as such, I'd hope that people would just ignore it instead of using the opportunity to cheaply insult it.
 
Tamayo, a person might kill once due to circumstances or passion, but a multiple killer with no remorse poses a greater danger to society.

Your reasoning (if I follow it correctly) about taking away part of the life of someone wrongly-convicted of murder would apply equally to people wrongly convicted of non-capital crimes -- to anyone who's incarcerated. Therefore, we should never try anyone for any crime because of the risk of taking away part of their life due to wrongful conviction?

At least if the innocent person is still alive, we may release him and compensate him in the only possible way: with money. We cannot revive those we have executed.

As I said, I'm on the fence with capital punishment. If not for unacceptable error rate and bias in our justice system, I'd be all for it.
 
Tamayo, a person might kill once due to circumstances or passion, but a multiple killer with no remorse poses a greater danger to society.

But the way you describe people who have killed multiple leads me to believe that you don't think there are single-murderers who fall under the exact same description.


Your reasoning (if I follow it correctly) about taking away part of the life of someone wrongly-convicted of murder would apply equally to people wrongly convicted of non-capital crimes -- to anyone who's incarcerated.

Somewhat, yes. My point is that punishment is punishment, and while I totally understand that the seriousness of punishment varies greatly from one circumstance to the next, no punishment can really be made up for if it was dealt to the wrong person. I'm saying that there will be mistakes in our judicial system whether we repeal the death penalty or not, so it makes no sense to for people to to reject the death penalty solely because some people will be innocent.


Therefore, we should never try anyone for any crime because of the risk of taking away part of their life due to wrongful conviction?

The opposite, actually. I think that our system is incapable of giving us conclusive answers 100% of the time, and it will remain that way no matter how terrifying or trivial the punishment is.


At least if the innocent person is still alive, we may release him and compensate him in the only possible way: with money. We cannot revive those we have executed.

As I see it in either case, the punishment has been dealt. I can see the benefit in not having executed someone to later realize they're innocent, but like I said above, this is an issue in itself. To be fair in terms of both pro-DP and not, I don't think that the severity of punishment should be changed because people are unsure of the system. I'm just saying that there's no correlation between the two issues, so we shouldn't let them influence one another.

If the people deem that a life sentence/death penalty is the appropriate punishment for a given crime, that should be the end of it since it's understood that there will be mistakes no matter which choice we take.
 
As I said, I'm on the fence with capital punishment. If not for unacceptable error rate and bias in our justice system, I'd be all for it.
What is unacceptable and what is acceptable. If you are looking for a perfect record, your off in la-la land. People that are paralyzed by what could happen to the one tenth of one percent are responsible for the fact that I can't buy balsamic vinegar at Walmart. What about the justice of the overwhelming majority?
 
The error rate of our justice system exceeds one-tenth of one percent. And you are far more likely to be given a death sentence if you're black than if you're white.

La-la land is a happy place, and doesn't require anyone to believe anything in particular to be a member.
 
The error rate of our justice system exceeds one-tenth of one percent.

To be honest, that's a pretty comforting figure in a discussion like this.


And you are far more likely to be given a death sentence if you're black than if you're white.

Let's --please-- not get into this as it's completely irrelevant, and something I'll probably make a thread for later.
 
It's not irrelevant at all if you're talking about whether to support the death penalty. It's one of the main arguments opponents use to abolish it.
 
It's not irrelevant at all if you're talking about whether to support the death penalty. It's one of the main arguments opponents use to abolish it.

I don't see why we should worry about the margin of error so long as it's not an overwhelming one. Besides, I said several times before that my point wasn't necessarily to get into the politics of the death penalty, but the morality and philosophy behind it. If you really wanted to discuss numbers and agendas, I could probably cite you more sources than I have fingers to support either side.
 
The error rate of our justice system exceeds one-tenth of one percent. And you are far more likely to be given a death sentence if you're black than if you're white.
Have you ever watched The First 48? It's quite educational about demographics. They aren't going out and finding murderers, they are solving cases when they find the bodies. Give it a try, then say that our justice system is framing black people. It's more likely that white people higher better lawyers to reduce sentences. However, from the 30 or so episodes I have seen of the show, there was only 1 white guy that killed his boyfriend (there are 2 murder cases per episode). You will also come to a new intolerance for drug use from watching it, since nearly all of the cases are drug related.

To be honest, that's a pretty comforting figure in a discussion like this.
It's not an accurate one. I was just throwing a number out for the sake of speculation about what is acceptable and what is not.
 
I didn't say a thing about crime rates by race. What I said was that when found guilty of murder, black defendants are more likely than white defendants to be sentenced to death.

Which means that the administration of the death penalty is racially biased. The same crime under the same circumstances should warrant the same sentence, regardless of race.
 
Which means that the administration of the death penalty is racially biased. The same crime under the same circumstances should warrant the same sentence, regardless of race.
More like the acquisition of defense attorneys is financially biased. I respect the problem. However, it doesn't look like the world is ready to get rid of their feuding lawyer system any time soon.
That doesn't make the punishment bad, it simply means we need to reform the process.
 
More like the acquisition of defense attorneys is financially biased.

A damn good reason to be against the DP right there.

That doesn't make the punishment bad, it simply means we need to reform the process.

So why are you not against the DP up and until the process is reformed?
 
I didn't say a thing about crime rates by race. What I said was that when found guilty of murder, black defendants are more likely than white defendants to be sentenced to death.

Which means that the administration of the death penalty is racially biased. The same crime under the same circumstances should warrant the same sentence, regardless of race.

How is this even remotely relevant to the topic at hand?
 
It's not remotely relevant. It's directly relevant to the question of where I stand on the death penalty.

Or does your screen show a different topic from mine?
 
It's not remotely relevant. It's directly relevant to the question of where I stand on the death penalty.

Or does your screen show a different topic from mine?

The fact that there are racists within the system has nothing to do with the topic at hand because it doesn't directly influence the moral substance of the punishment itself. You're effectively saying "The death penalty is wrong because a black man might be wrongly put to death. Thank you -- vote pro life!"

No one asked if black people deserve to die for their crimes more than other people. I asked if you think the death penalty is justifiable as a punishment and not vengeance, and whether you agree that death should be the price of taking a life.

Since you insist on this being a topic to review in a discussion on the moral issue of systematically taking a life, though, I'll humor you right up until we both stop for a moment and ask ourselves "Wait, so how does this make the death penalty worse, again?"


I didn't say a thing about crime rates by race. What I said was that when found guilty of murder, black defendants are more likely than white defendants to be sentenced to death.

That's a bit of a glittering generality -- What do you mean by "crime"? Are we specifically talking about people who have killed one person, or multiple, or are you just grouping all murderers into the same category? Also, what's the source of this information?


Which means that the administration of the death penalty is racially biased. The same crime under the same circumstances should warrant the same sentence, regardless of race.

Exactly what sort of circumstances are you referring to? Are there multiple charges, or just one charge? Are there varying amounts of charges in these cases you're talking about?
 
Excuse me. Your thread question -- the topic, if you will -- is:

"Where do you stand on Capital Punishment?"

I gave you my answer, and I have no interest in joining your squabble over the topic.
 
Excuse me. Your thread question -- the topic, if you will -- is:

"Where do you stand on Capital Punishment?"

That may be so, but you seem to have skipped a lot of what I said in the post itself since I said that I wanted to discuss the morality and philosophy behind executing any human, not a specifically a black one.
 
Roland is correct Tamayo. You might want to keep this in the realm of theory, but the reality is that the DP will not be applied fairly. And knowing that reality makes a farce of the theory. Thus he is against the DP.

If you want to keep the discussion based on "in theory" only, you should have said so up front.

I was once for the DP in theory because I felt those who kill deserve to die. But I was still against the DP for the simple reality that someone has to carry out that sentence, making them a killer as well.

Further thought has made me against the DP in theory as well, simply for the message on killing that it sends even if it were done not by us but some God-like being.
 
Roland is correct Tamayo. You might want to keep this in the realm of theory, but the reality is that the DP will not be applied fairly. And knowing that reality makes a farce of the theory. Thus he is against the DP.

If you want to keep the discussion based on "in theory" only, you should have said so up front.

I was once for the DP in theory because I felt those who kill deserve to die. But I was still against the DP for the simple reality that someone has to carry out that sentence, making them a killer as well.

Further thought has made me against the DP in theory as well, simply for the message on killing that it sends even if it were done not by us but some God-like being.

But the nature of this thread has never been about fallacy in our government's systems, or money, or the politics behind it. The nature of this thread is to find out what people think about death as a punishment for murder. That has nothing to do with race.
 
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