Canadian Pierre Pariseau causes melee at Yasukuni Shrine

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Canadian Pierre Pariseau (right) questions former Gen. Toshio Tamogami (second from the left) during commerations for the 64th anniversy of end of World War Two at Yausukuni shrine in Tokyo, Japan on Aug 15th 2009. Gen. Toshio Tamogami was dismissed after publishing an essay asserting that Japan was not the aggressor in World War Two. .. Long term Japan resident Pierre Pariseau was attempting to leave the shrine after being grabbed and shoved by supporters of the General as he attempted to get a taxi he was prevented from doing so by police. He was taken to a police box near Ichigaya station for 2 hours. He was released after writing a letter of apology to Yasukuni shrine,Sakura Channel and Gen. Toshio Tamogami. Mr Pariseau asked the General if he knew "That he would be arrested in Germany for doing what he was doing?" ..Established in 1869 by the Meiji Emperor to commerate those who died in the Boshin War . The shrine now houses the souls or 'kami' of Japan's war dead including 14 A-class war criminals who were interned among the 2.5 million war dead in 1978. Visits to the shrine by Japanese Prime Ministers create tensions with Japan's Asian neighbors. 153728818.webp
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Japanese reaction:
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Subtitles were said by Japanese around. This Journalist kept smiling all the time to avoid being beaten up.
 
My point is not about being rude thing. Every country's patriots would react in that way. My point is that Japanese nazy (fascist or militarism, whatever), does exist. By the way, anti Japanese militarism doesn't mean anti japan. Don't be confused.
 
Who has ever said there are no right wingers in Japan? They are called uyoku, and are considered embarrassing to most people in the country. It's not a secret.

And same as the last ten times you were told by members here: Nazism was a German thing. There are and have never been Japanese Nazis.

You seem confused about something for sure.
 
Japan has a population of 128 million. You can find a great many oddballs and wackos amongst 128 million people, but unless you provide some type of reliable evidence that a significant portion of the population espouses some mental ideology, your feeble argument will serve only to reveal your writing here for what it is: propaganda.

I mean, sensationalist propaganda is an oft used thing. Politically influenced media loves it - to exaggerate minor things and portray them as global by tactically forgetting to mention their scale.
 
Yeah, but in German Nazism is a crime by constitution, while A-class war criminals resides in Holy site of Japan. Plus, this Canadian guy was arrested by authority for "being rude" to those who are "embarrassing to most people in the country".
 
Last time I checked, Japan has a democratic government, where authority is supposed to represent most of its people's ideology. Yet the police arrested that guy for questioning the "oddballs/wackos". That does say something to me.
 
Yeah, but in German Nazism is a crime by constitution, while A-class war criminals resides in Holy site of Japan. Plus, this Canadian guy was arrested by authority for "being rude" to those who are "embarrassing to most people in the country".

I would say that it isn't as clear-cut a case to compare Nazism to Japan in the WWII. (Actually, I think Germany has gone overboard in the way they have criminalised all forms of Nazism; it is 'legal' more or less in other countries under the premise of free speech)

Anyway, when I first came to Japan, my reaction was that Yasukuni was BAD, but I had to start to see it from the Japanese point of view (the worst thing you can do in this situation is condemn a culture without trying to understand their viewpoint). It enshrines millions of souls, and a dozen or so war criminals. When they were enshrined there, I don't even know that they were officially claimed war criminals... That is beyond my research abilities in a second language. So, when people visit there, the general meaning is to show respect to people who died for their country. I know Japanese who have paid respect there, and they were not paying tribute to Japan's militarism. They were paying respect to sacrifice.

If you are actually American (as your location implies), consider the Vietnam War. By all accounts, except for the most right-wing in America, that was an immoral war, and the number of war crimes was immense. All the same, America has created the Vietnam Memorial, which is visited by millions every year. Are those people all right-wingers paying tribute to civilian rape and napalm bombings? I don't think so. I think people are showing respect for the sacrifice made for their country.

Looking at this guy being arrested simply for being rude. He got in the face of a military/political figure trying to leave (it seems, I'm no expert in this case). If there was ceremony paying tribute at the Vietnam memorial, and some guy ran in, yelling at them, comparing them to respecting Nazis, I think there is a strong chance they would be arrested, regardless of free speech. Or at least held in custody/removed as disturbing the peace. This guy's punishment? Held for two hours in a koban and writing a letter of apology. "Arrest" may not be the correct word.

I understand why other Asian countries get angry over politicians visiting the shrine, and think they (Japanese politicians) should stop, simply for the sake of pacifying their neighbors. But I don't see anything inherently offensive about Japanese visiting the shrine.

The Japanese who support WWII, and make a public show of it are Uyoku, and visiting the shrine does not make a person Uyoku (as I wrote, I know Japanese who have visited, and they are by no means Uyoku, you'll have to trust me on that). The people in this story, I don't know about. But, yes, Uyoku are an embarrassment to the country, and are the Japanese comparable to Americans who wear Dixie flags and are disappointed about the way the country is going with the race-mixing and all. Look Uyoku up on Wiki.

It's a complicated issue, and you should look into the topic a long time before jumping to conclusions. As an outsider, it's way too easy to have a fraction of the information and declare it a black and white issue. It's not.
 
First, I am actually Chinese living in California. Based on your replay, I would assume you are from a western country so I can understand why you think it is unfair to compare Imperial Japan with Nazi. It is just the same reason so many people in Eastern Asia actually warships Nazi Germany for its power and mourn the fallen of 3rd Reich. Ideologically Nazism is notorious for genocide, but few (in the west) known that Imperial Japanese considered all other 'inferior' Asians to be lowly asserts for Japan to form its Asian Empire, which is almost identical to Nazi ideology. I am not going to expand on what Japanese did to us. But if you are interested in the issue you can always start with the name John Rabe, the German who witnessed the massacre in Nanking. In short, the only difference I see in Imperial Japan is that they did not dedicate their atrocities to a specific ethic group but to all under their occupation.

Back to the issue itself. I did a little study so the guy challenged in the video was Toshio Tamogami, a definite right-wing who publicly stated Imperial Japan was not a invader in WWII. Apparently that is why the Canadian asked the question in the first place. All issues aside, I do not see how the Canadian deserved to be take into custody in a democratic country by any means. He did not interrupt any ceremony, as you can see Toshio was obviously taking an interview. He did not use any offensive language let alone physical assaults. He even asked for attention politely and waited until Toshio turn to him before throwing out the question instead of "ran into ceremony and yelling".

Furthermore, how did Toshio, as a politician and former general, react to a tough, may be even embarrassing question? I would imagine him reply things like "But this is Japan" or "We are not Nazi" or simply ignore and leave. However, he let his retinues raged and followed the guy, eventually got the guy took into custody. Well, he is probably categorized as a Uyoku so it does not really matter. What puzzled me is the custody part. With all possible embarrassment, I would imagine this kind of thing happen in my home country, China, or under any other authoritarian government. But Japan? What makes the police decide to side with the Uyokus and eventually humiliate the Canadian by making him write the letter of apology? Did local police department simply send right-wing policemen to secure such sensitive ceremony?

To me, there is only two possible answers:

A. Deep in heart, Japan actually has an authoritarian government.
B. The ideology of Japanese government more or less side with the Uyokus.

And speak of Yasukuni Shrine itself. I do not think visiting the shrine makes you a right-winger or Imperial Japan supporter. I respect tradition and holy sites of all nations and ethical groups. However, I do wonder that, if Uyokus are "embarrassment of rest of the country", why those A-class war criminals, the spiritual idols of Uyokus, got to resides in Japanese holy site so many years, even after the issue caused so much trouble?

I would say, it is because the statement of Uyoku is just a diplomatic statement trying to make the rest of the world comfortable.
 
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First, I am actually Chinese living in California. Based on your replay, I would assume you are from a western country so I can understand why you think it is unfair to compare Imperial Japan with Nazi. It is just the same reason so many people in Eastern Asia actually warships Nazi Germany for its power and mourn the fallen of 3rd Reich. Ideologically Nazism is notorious for genocide, but few (in the west) known that Imperial Japanese considered all other 'inferior' Asians to be lowly asserts for Japan to form its Asian Empire, which is almost identical to Nazi ideology. I am not going to expand on what Japanese did to us. But if you are interested in the issue you can always start with the name John Rabe, the German who witnessed the massacre in Nanking. In short, the only difference I see in Imperial Japan is that they did not dedicate their atrocities to a specific ethic group but to all under their occupation.
I know all about what Japan did in China and in Asia in general. The thing is, I think it was absolutely horrible, and crimes against humanity, but I still think it's not helpful to liken Japanese to Nazis, because what the Nazis did was make a plan for genocide, while the Japanese were not trying to exterminate any people. They did do appalling things, in Nanking, in China, in Indonesia, in Korea. I think the historical record in the world is confident of this fact, even if there are deniers in Japan still.

I've never heard of anywhere worshipping Nazi Germany in Asia. I've seen them liking the fashion a few times in my years here, but worshipping them and mourning for them? I think that would have to be .1% or less. Nothing to hold up as an example.
Back to the issue itself. I did a little study so the guy challenged in the video was Toshio Tamogami, a definite right-wing who publicly stated Imperial Japan was not a invader in WWII. Apparently that is why the Canadian asked the question in the first place. All issues aside, I do not see how the Canadian deserved to be take into custody in a democratic country by any means. He did not interrupt any ceremony, as you can see Toshio was obviously taking an interview. He did not use any offensive language let alone physical assaults. He even asked for attention politely and waited until Toshio turn to him before throwing out the question instead of "ran in to ceremony and yelling".
Most countries in the world would take a person into custody if the police perceived them as harassing a politician or military person. Especially if it was a foreigner. It would happen in America, Canada, pretty much any country I have knowledge of. Maybe there is a country you can travel to and get in the face of a prominent person, linking them to nazis, and the police will let you, but I don't see it. That is the state of democracy. You have some freedoms, but police can take you in for causing a disturbance. They often won't press charges these days, but this is not a new thing at all.
Furthermore, how did Toshio, as a politician and former general, react to a tough, may be even embarrassing question? I would imagine him reply things like "But this is Japan" or "We are not Nazi" or simply ignore and leave. However, he let his retinues raged and followed the guy, eventually got the guy took into custody. Well, he is probably categorized as a Uyoku so it does not really matter. What puzzled me is the custody part. With all possible embarrassment, I would imagine this kind of thing happen in my home country, China, or under any other authoritarian government. But Japan? What makes the police decide to side with the Uyokus and eventually humiliate the Canadian by making him write the letter of apology? Did local police department simply send right-wing policemen to secure such sensitive ceremony? To me, there is only two possible answers:
The police sided with the citizen who was targeted by this guy, and not with the foreigner who started the whole thing. Why would he not deal with the foreign guy trying to press him with uncomfortable questions? I think he did as most people would in that situation.

This is not any excuse for whatever Tamogami thinks or does, I don't know. But there is no doubt why the police of a country side with their own citizen in a disturbance with a foreigner.
A. Deep in heart, Japan actually has an authoritarian government.
B. The ideology of Japanese government more or less side with the Uyokus.
A: Sort of. But all (big) countries do when you go against them. They resist. That is the nature of power. America created "free speech zones" which prevented free speech, for much of the Iraq War. That was an authoritarian move. Canada sent police with badge numbers and faces covered to deal with protestors. That was authoritarian. I think those are terrible actions. And they aren't supported by many or most, but making change through voting requires time and a well-informed population. Japan is not going to get upset over police taking a Canadian into custody for two hours when their economy is hurting, the population is facing an ageing crisis, the baseball tournament is on, etc etc. You are expecting too much from the Japanese government. It's really unrealistic.
B: No. There are people who are hard right, who are naturally drawn to politics, and there is a debate within the government, but it is foolish to claim the government is on the side of one thing or the other. You may as well say the American government is more or less Republican. I don't think the Uyoku influence on government is more than 20%. Most of the government is more concerned with the economy than it is with history or the military.

And speak of Yasukuni Shrine itself. I do not think visiting the shrine makes you a right-winger or Imperial Japan supporter. I respect tradition and holy sites of all nations and ethical groups. However, I do wonder that, if Uyokus are "embarrassment of rest of the country", why those A-class war criminals, the spiritual idols of Uyokus, got to resides in Japanese holy site so many years, even after the issue caused so much trouble?

I would say, it is because the statement of Uyoku is just a diplomatic statement trying to make the rest of the world comfortable.
Why does the US have the Vietnam Memorial? How did one of the top US military war criminals, Henry Kissenger, get a Nobel Peace Prize?

Because, "For your country," has a lot of weight. Chiang Kai-Shek was a brutal tyrant for China, while a national hero in Taiwan. But he was all the same guy. Both sides focus on a different aspect of him.

I understand your frustration with the actions of some Japanese, but you would be well off to come and live in Japan for a few years, make close friendships with Japanese, before thinking that there is some pride in their war crimes. They just love their country, as most healthy people do.
 
Most countries in the world would take a person into custody if the police perceived them as harassing a politician or military person. Especially if it was a foreigner. It would happen in America, Canada, pretty much any country I have knowledge of.

I would like to see an example incident. Besides, just as you tried to image him as a guy running into a sacred ceremony and start yelling before, now you define him as harassing a public figure. I can not see how he acted out of not law but manner except the question itself could be embarrassing. This kind of trick you are playing is really making me sick.

The police sided with the citizen who was targeted by this guy, and not with the foreigner who started the whole thing. Why would he not deal with the foreign guy trying to press him with uncomfortable questions? I think he did as most people would in that situation.

This is not any excuse for whatever Tamogami thinks or does, I don't know. But there is no doubt why the police of a country side with their own citizen in a disturbance with a foreigner.

Again, this would be convincing to anyone did not actually watch the video. The guy asked a question in a public place to a public figure, just one sentence. He did it in manner, no yelling, no interrupting, no dirty words, no physical action. Those people surrounded and shouted at him immediately, that's fine. People start to stalk him, that's fine. At last those people already made him frightened and he said he was sorry and begged to be left alone and police just take him anyway. So please stop make it sound like the Canadian guy was stalking and wont give up on the former general. He said one sentence and was immediately driven away.

No one is suggesting police should side with him to take the former general into custody. But when apparently the former general does not need help, the police sided with the former general not to help him out but to help him HUMILIATE the Canadian guy. Again, nice trick.

Because, "For your country," has a lot of weight.
So the line between global anti-human butcher and "for you country" hero is drawn right between Adolf Hitler and Hideki Tojo because latter did not write all the anti-human crimes he is going to commit or authorize on paper ahead of time. Interesting.

As for Chiang Kai-Shek, his tyrant was more of propagandize needs of the winner. While I do not know how can you use a civil war figure to support your "for your country" point, I do love to see how you apply the both side theory on Hitler.

Besides, worshiping and praising those war criminals are "embarrassing the country", putting them in a holy memorial place for honorable people is not. I love how you are able to come up with a logical explanation.

I understand your frustration with the actions of some Japanese, but you would be well off to come and live in Japan for a few years, make close friendships with Japanese, before thinking that there is some pride in their war crimes.
These kinda explains why you stand so firmly trying to prove vast majorities in Japan are against Uyoku. I would be really happy if only it were true.
 
Since I make you so sick and you think what I'm writing is tricks, I won't bother trying to have a polite discussion with you. I don't need to be insulted.
 
You were arguing politely but your arguments were distorting facts again and again. I do not mean to insult you but I agree there is no point continue this argument. I am sorry you feel insulted.
 
You were arguing politely but your arguments were distorting facts again and again. I do not mean to insult you but I agree there is no point continue this argument. I am sorry you feel insulted.

No need to be sorry you think I feel insulted (I don't, I don't know you enough to care). Be sorry for insulting someone you don't know.
 
Most Chinese do not know the original meaning of Nazy. Japan's militarism is considered to be nazy in China. And I have showed it to you for a dozen times, which is in Chinese, Japanese militarism is Japanese nazy. And Chinese official medias directly called WWII's Japanese invader as Nazi soldiers.

And by your logic, I think German nazy would be better, because they killed people for special reasons, which means they are civilized. But Japanese nazy once landed on continentツ, they immediately committed seriously holocaust because of their samurai thing. Like Iツ said, I myself believe Germany nazy are same evil as that of Japan. But if you have to compare it and feel no mercy for victims of Chinese & Korea, then this is my thoughts. If you really want to compare who was more evil, numbers could tell. 20 million people died in west Europe, while another 20 million Chinese died in east asia. In europe, people were fighting with each other. But in China, its an unilateral massacre.

At first, Chinese citizens did not panic seriously, because they still believed Japanese would be like other war lords or civilized nations inside China (like Muslim army, Mongolian army or Manchuria army), but finally, they were wrong and all killed by Japanese knives. Those Chinese war lords also robbed lands from each other, but they did not slaught people for no reason. It was because they were civilized. However Japanese just gave a big surprise to all other kinds of Chinese.
 
I can also offer you with solid evidence about how they raped and burnt down the whole town in China. Or other things like doing experiments on live human body.
But I feel you would ignore that so why would I bother to show it.
 
If most people are not right wings, why these police just catch the westerner? Are these polices happen to be right wing, while most of others are not? So from this we can see how many right wings here in Japan. If some foreigners dare to question about WWII, he would be at least questioned by Japanese police.
 
Japan has a population of 128 million. You can find a great many oddballs and wackos amongst 128 million people, but unless you provide some type of reliable evidence that a significant portion of the population espouses some mental ideology, your feeble argument will serve only to reveal your writing here for what it is: propaganda.

I mean, sensationalist propaganda is an oft used thing. Politically influenced media loves it - to exaggerate minor things and portray them as global by tactically forgetting to mention their scale.

Their leader for the moment is a militarism guy. Can you imagine Germany vote a Nazy guy for their country? That's why now Russian, Both Korean, China and some southeast Asian countries feel angry about Japan.
 
Do not even bother.

This guy, despite his neutral language, is strongly biased towards Japanese government which he does not admit is right-sided (it make sense since most know Japanese right-wings are quite bad). A real neutral would not use the word "target" and "harassing" so easily after he saw how little Pierre Pariseau did and how hard he was threatened by right-wingers before police finally took him away. A neutral would not ignore the detail that the policeman was not actually going to involve until Toshio Tamogami's retinue commanded him to do so, let alone calling it "The police sided with the citizen who was targeted by this guy".

The way he was trying to justify what Japanese police did to Pierre Pariseau reminds me of how Japanese extreme ring-wingers trying to justify 2nd Sino-Japanese war as "Japan stood up to unify Asia against western colonialism imperials".

People believe what they want to believe and what they already believed. It does not matter what we say here and what the facts are.
 
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