Brain limit

persil · 20 Jul 2006

Ok, now I've learned hiragana somehow. I can define both ways: which sound is which character, and vice-versa...

However... now I'm studying katakana... And I'm stuck. STUCK. It didn't happen with hiragana, but with those characters, I don't know what's happening to me, but I can't associate them at all. I'm at NA, NI, NU, NE, NO. I've pretty much memorized the first A...O and KA...KO, but the other ones are all mixed up.

I can recognize which sound from seeing a symbol, but not the other way around, I can't... I've taken a day off from new symbols, but I fear I'll be stuck on these for a while...

Anyway, sorry if that might be a pointless post, I feel stupid, that's all...

JimmySeal · 20 Jul 2006

We all have times when we feel like we're never going to grasp a concept, no matter how hard we try. I know I have thousands of times. But I'm sure that there will be a day when you won't even remember how hard you thought katakana are.

If you feel like you're not making any progress, set the katakana aside for a week and focus on something else. In the meantime, your brain will be organizing the information you've already got and when you return to studying katakana, it will most likely be considerably easier.

yukio_michael · 20 Jul 2006

Katakana is particularly troubling to me, because I don't use it all that often. The best way I've found to learn anything to do with writing is to physically write it out... I wrote out the kana over and over and over again, and after that it stuck... then... I lost it... by not using it.

That's the trouble with a foreign lanuage, especially one with so many angles and right turns as Japanese.

Kyoko_desu · 20 Jul 2006

I think JimmySeal san and yukio_michael san's advices are really good.
persil san, don't think you are stupid or anything, and ganbatte ne.

GodEmperorLeto · 20 Jul 2006

It never ceases to amaze me how much katakana are harder than hiragana. Sometimes, remembering hundreds of kanji is even easier than remembering every ideogram in your na-ni-nu-ne-no row. I do not have any idea why, but katakana are hard as hell.

Glenn · 20 Jul 2006

Katakana aren't ideograms.

bentenmusume · 20 Jul 2006

And it depends on how you choose to define "ideogram", but going by this definition:

dictionary.com said:
A character or symbol representing an idea or a thing without expressing the pronunciation of a particular word or words for it, as in the traffic sign commonly used for ﾂ"no parkingﾂ" or ﾂ"parking prohibited.ﾂ" Also called ideograph.

...then you could argue that kanji aren't really ideograms either. (This is actually apparently a somewhat controversial topic in academic circles -- one of my former professors published a book and a number of papers about it.)

Glenn · 20 Jul 2006

Yes, I've heard about that as well, and have seen a very small sampling of the argument. I think "logographs" is the most widely accepted term for kanji.

tanhql · 20 Jul 2006

i can read and write both hiragana and katakana, but when it comes to reading sentences, i'm more fluent at reading the hiragana and katakana. i have to look at the individual katakana characters, string them up together, and 'find' the meaning to them. whrereas for hiragana i can read without much problem, ie, in one go.

Mike Cash · 20 Jul 2006

I actively studied hiragana, and largely picked up katakana by osmosis (seeing them on signs and billboards). That was over 20 years ago, and to this day I am far, far less comfortable with katakana. Reading them is no problem, but recalling them sometimes gives me fits.

I remember once not being able to recall how to write ケ. After a couple of blank minutes, I realized that I write it every day when I write my name on my paperwork at work. I had to write my name in order to recall it.

Hachiro · 20 Jul 2006

Mike Cash said:
I actively studied hiragana, and largely picked up katakana by osmosis (seeing them on signs and billboards). That was over 20 years ago, and to this day I am far, far less comfortable with katakana. Reading them is no problem, but recalling them sometimes gives me fits.

I remember once not being able to recall how to write ケ. After a couple of blank minutes, I realized that I write it every day when I write my name on my paperwork at work. I had to write my name in order to recall it.

At least I see I am not alone........I regularly forget the - that I should be in my name as well as "shi" and "tsu", which is up?....which is down?

Hey Mike could you please "clear" out your PM box a bit........your box is "over" the limit and is not accepting any "new" mail! Thanks

persil · 20 Jul 2006

Thanks all for your input!!!

So I'm not hallucinating when I think katakana are much harder to learn than hiragana... I don't know why, but it just doesn't sink in as easier.

JimmySeal: Yeah, I could probably do that... But I just learned hiragana and I have to continue practicing not to forget it all too!!! And I REALLY want this over with Once I'll have learned them all, I'll just have to do some maintenance exercises afterwards, it'll be less time consuming, or so I hope!

yukio_michael: I also believe that, because that's exactly what I'm doing. I'm doing exercises on paper always. When practicing a character, I fill up an entire 8x10 sheet of paper with the character, meaning I write it a couple hundred times I worked like a charm with hiragana, not just as well with katakana.

All in all, thanks for your kind words. Kyoko_desu, I will continue to try my best

Mycernius · 21 Jul 2006

I found the Katakana more difficult to remember as well. Must be something to do with the fact that you wouldn't read it as much as Hiragana.
NI is faily easy to remember as it is the same as the kanji for two, ni
As for shi and tsu. The book I used has the idea that Tsu resembles a bat resting on a wall with two balls - Bats and balls,
and shi as she has a lovely smile

Kinsao · 21 Jul 2006

I also found katakana harder to remember.
Maybe it's also something to do with the fact that you have already one set of symbols in your head that you associate with the sounds? :?
The way I remembered 'shi' and 'tsu' was that for each one, the stroke points in the same direction as when you write the stroke in hiragana - with 'shi' you finish on an upstroke, and with 'tsu' on a downstroke - that worked for me! (My Japanese teacher said it to us )
There are also some katakana that I don't see so often, like 'nu'. >< I find them harder to remember.
But keep persevering and you will do it!

nice gaijin · 21 Jul 2006

Practice what you know every day, and each day add a few more characters to your routine, and you'll get to a point where it just comes naturally.

You're going to love kanji

The7thSamurai · 21 Jul 2006

Yeah I also find katakana harder to recall, sometimes I can't recall even the most basic!

Our alphabet also has two different types, upper case and lower case, but I don't ever recall having troubles learning them! AnD evErYoNe cAN ReAd THeM nO mAtTer whICh WaY yOU wRiTE tHeM.

nhk9 · 22 Jul 2006

Don't worry about those alphabet; you are not alone. It took me a whole 2 years to really get comfortable with them and not forgetting them (I don't live in Japan btw). Anyway it's not worse than learning your ABCs except you probably don't need to learn katakana to survive. Actually katakana is probably one of the easiest parts of Japanese. We should feel grateful for katakana since using hiragana to depict borrowed words would make it harder to read.

nice gaijin · 22 Jul 2006

nhk9 said:
Anyway it's not worse than learning your ABCs except you probably don't need to learn katakana to survive.

When I was there last year, I was overwhelmed by how much katakana I saw, and how slow I was at reading it.

I suppose you could be functionally illiterate and live in Japan in some capacity or another. So necessary to survive? Perhaps not, but it sure helps.

leonmarino · 22 Jul 2006

I was raised reading and writing Japanese, but I found katakana's to be a pain through my life. It is probably because I rarely use it, and some don't resemble their hiragana counterparts at all!

Don't give up Persil!! ガンバレ～！

Dont Hesitate & Go · 22 Jul 2006

Speaking of learning Hiragana and Katakana.

I've just started to teach myself. I had thought learning to speak Japanese alone was going to be harder then reading and writing it...I was so wrong.

persil · 23 Jul 2006

Nice to see I'm not alone feeling katakana is a pain!

I finally got to remember these S, T and N correctly. Strangely (not so actually), it's when I found a keyword that "produced" a link to the symbols I was unable to remember.

"Two lines"

That is valid for Chi, Te , To and Ni, at least for me, it helps me remember them. That's when I finally stopped knocking my head on my desk. I've taken some time off since, I was heading towards an overdose

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