Hachiro said:
Resorting to comments like this help me to prove my point about certain personality traits that Japanese and for that matter many other people in the world find to be annoying about many American's.
I think you'll miss it entirely because you are showing yourself to blind to the obvious. Jimmy my boy you just dont get it do you..........
Perhaps he can't get it because your comments are permeated with condescension. For example:
That's the point.........but they don't quite see it or themselves that way now do they?
To many American's it's "Hey that's how we are" but they don't get it that just being the way they are is annoying to many Japanese. If they would learn to tone it down and quit coming across like a bull in a china shop things would be much easier for them. They are loud, overbearing and arrogant many times, when silent observation would be the best course of action.
Under the circumstances, JimmySeal's comment:
If nobody ever asked "why," nothing in the world would ever improve. Since you obviously hate Western society, Hachiro, I'm sure you're just jumping to go ahead and trash Socrates, Plato, Newton, Einstein, and every other philosopher and scientist who spent his or her entire life asking "why?"
isn't totally unjustified. You appear ready to jump to the defense of the Japanese, while simulteneously prepared to crucify any Westerner for being Western. Whether this is intentional or not, this is the impression you are giving, and I can see why JimmySeal takes offense.
As for Americans being poorly mannered, I must comment that our lack of manners is a product of 40 years of cultural reform. Men once took their hats off whenever entering a building, or meeting someone new, for example, but now that's almost extinct. Americans also suffer from a dearth of etiquette because we are a nation of commoners. Although we have wealthy gentry throughout our history, we have no nobles to define etiquette for us, as it had evolved in Europe. For example, Benjamin Franklin was seen as charmingly rustic with his beaverskin cap in the court of the French king Louis XVI, because although he conducted himself with grace and charm, he was still a self-educated and uncultured commoner.
In addition, Western civilization has, since the ﾆ陳ｿﾆ津?津哉津照陳ｿ of Athens, been taught to as "why." We have been taught to value honesty, and taught to find better ways of doing things. Throughout Western history, cultures who resist growth, adaptation, and invention stagnate and decline, while those to innovate, take risks, and rock the boat succeed. And although this is seen as disharmonious to Eastern cultures, I must admit, it was Columbus in three leaky craft that started the colonization of the Americas, and not Zheng He in far superior ships half-a-century previous. It was gunpowder and Western weapons and tactics that placed
Tokugawa Ieyasu on the throne of
Shogun, although his grandson rejected everything Western in order to preserve the
samurai and their tradition, and two hundred years later his line was overthrown because an upstart, low-born descendant of a farmer showed up off his coast with big, big guns.
I'm not defending American rudeness or attacking Japanese
wa. What I
am trying to point out is how your condescending attitude is misplaced. You seem to have a smugness about Japanese culture, and you give the impression of how it is far superior to anything Western. If this is unintentional, I apologize. But if it is, perhaps you should read some books by Victor Davis Hanson and Jared Diamond, or perhaps talk to educated, intelligent American businessmen about the Japanese companies they work for.
As for me, although I prefer my own culture (for its ideals, mainly, rather than its execution), I still respect Japanese culture, and I want to understand it. That is the reason I ask "why?" so much. If I understand the "why" behind a custom, I can apply that knowledge in other places as well and maybe avoid a
faux pas.
Elizabeth said:
Europeans (and Australians?) even more so than Americans, I would generally consider extremely rude in Japan because they are always the ones polluting the public space by talking louder than everyone else in their native language, making blunt and demanding approaches on strangers, etc.
I've been hearing a number of complains by Americans about foreigners (mostly Indians, Hispanics, and Asians, but a few Europeans) doing exactly that at diners, coffee shops, and on the street. I disagree that this is rude, just so long as they do business in and address Americans in English, they can talk with one-another in their native tongues.
leonmarino said:
The Japanese culture is based on interdependant relationships instead of independant self-awareness, and the Japanese would do anything to avoid conflict or cause trouble. It is out of courtesy that many Japanese people refrain from expressing their (ego-centric) thoughts and feelings.
For many westernized people, including myself, not being able to express yourself seems like a weakness, but in the Japanese culture it is very natural.
I dunno if it is natural, but it certainly seems characteristic. However, many of the Japanese students I've tutored don't ever want to return to Japan, because they feel that maintaining
wa is stifling and stressful, and prefer the "freedom of expression" and egocentrism of American culture.
Bucko said:
This happens everywhere in Japan. It's considered normal to treat shopkeepers or waitresses like rubbish, or like they don't exist. It's quite shocking at first but you get use to it. I think it's something to do with the whole (for lack of a better word) "inequality" or "seniority" system that still exists here.
This reminds me of something interesting. One of my students wrote an essay about American rudeness and Japanese reservedness. One of the things she complained about in her essay was how American shopkeepers and storeclerks don't smile, and that "have a nice day" seems tacked on. Having worked in retail myself, I remembered how a smile and a happy attitude worked well with some people, but most found it patronizing unless they got to know you personally behind the counter. I guess clerks stay aloof and "professional" in America. Once, supposedly, clerks always smiled (i.e. the "service with a smile" tag-line), but I guess we're all in too much of a hurry (both clerk and customer) to really be friendly.
Knowing that the Japanese ignore their storeclerks and greeters, who are always smiling and bowing, is almost completely opposite of how Americans have become.