aspect -te kuru/ -te iku + verb 見える/聞こえる

Ira Nanapu · 11 Jul 2012

こんばんは。
I wanna ask something that quite specific about the using of hojoudoushi -te iku and -te kuru. (アスペクトについて。。。)
I ever read a theory which says that verb potential/ situation such as "kikoeru" or "mieru" cannot be followed by -te iku form[/B].
Is it true? I need some theoretical explanations about this statement.
Is it possible to find such as "N+ga+kikoete iku" phrase in daily Japanese, or some literature like novels or manga?
Thanks for commenting my post. This is the first one.
ありがとう

Andromedashun · 11 Jul 2012

te kuru means go to do something then come back.

''kikoete iku'' is a weird phrase that didn't make sense. I can tell you I even haven't seen potential form + te iku. They seem can't be translated or don't have any meaning.

Toritoribe · 11 Jul 2012

Just a tiny thing but it's "hojodoushi" (not "hojou").;-)

Indeed 聞こえていく/見えていく is hardly used, but 聞こえてくる/見えてくる is quite common. This いく/くる indicates the spacial direction("going away from the subject/target" and "coming to the subject/target") rather than the continuous action/movement in the time line("to the future" and "from the past"). There is no such situation that you become to be able to hear/see something by its going away from you, that's why 聞こえていく and 見えていく is not used. You can use 聞こえるようになる/見えるようになる for the time line (聞こえるようになっていく/くる and 見えるようになっていく/くる) instead of 聞こえる/見える.

Elizabeth · 11 Jul 2012

Andromedashun said:
te kuru means go to do something then come back.

''kikoete iku'' is a weird phrase that didn't make sense. I can tell you I even haven't seen potential form + te iku. They seem can't be translated or don't have any meaning.

Just FYI, Kikoeru, mieru, wakaru I think are actually considered a special class of verbs called spontaneous because they imply a process of perceiving something that elicits an involuntary or instinctive reaction from the viewer/listener separate from the regularly conjugated potential forms of kiku - kikeru, miru - mirareru etc.

Andromedashun · 11 Jul 2012

Elizabeth said:
Just FYI, Kikoeru, mieru, wakaru I think are actually considered a special class of verbs called spontaneous because they imply a process of perceiving something that elicits an involuntary or instinctive reaction from the viewer/listener separate from the regularly conjugated potential forms of kiku - kikeru, miru - mirareru etc.

That I know... (read from Taekim's guide).

But wait... isn't mieru potential too???

Glenn · 11 Jul 2012

No, it's 自発, like 聞こえる.

Toritoribe · 11 Jul 2012

When focusing on the function "an ability to see", 見える is used.

○猫は暗闇でも獲物が見える。
✕猫は暗闇でも獲物が見られる。

Elizabeth · 11 Jul 2012

Andromedashun said:
te kuru means go to do something then come back.

''kikoete iku'' is a weird phrase that didn't make sense. I can tell you I even haven't seen potential form + te iku. They seem can't be translated or don't have any meaning.

I don't know if this bit is exactly correct, but it only strange talking about coming towards the speaker as a target, like Tori mentioned. If he action/change is going away from your perspective, or is moving in a direction irrelevant to you 聞き手に聞こえていくよう.... for instance could be translated "So the listener can hear" etc.

Andromedashun · 11 Jul 2012

I know I'm not confont anything but she did mention iku not kuru. Beside I only left a probability, indicates that I haven't heard yet, so I said they seem to have no meaning. I'm not expect correct but glad if it's wrong someone could explain, like what Toritoribe-san did.

Toritoribe · 11 Jul 2012

Elizabeth said:
I don't know if this bit is exactly correct, but it only strange talking about coming towards the speaker as a target, like Tori mentioned. If he action/change is going away from your perspective, or is moving in a direction irrelevant to you 聞き手に聞こえていくよう.... for instance could be translated "So the listener can hear" etc.

～ていく is hardly used even for the case. 聞き手に聞こえるよう/聞こえるようになるよう is appropriate.

Ira Nanapu · 11 Jul 2012

Toritoribe said:
Just a tiny thing but it's "hojodoushi" (not "hojou").;-)

Thanks for the correction, Tori.

There is no such situation that you become to be able to hear/see something by its going away from you, that's why 聞こえていく and 見えていく is not used. You can use 聞こえるようになる/見えるようになる for the time line (聞こえるようになっていく/くる and 見えるようになっていく/くる) instead of 聞こえる/見える.

So, if we use the "-you ni natte iku" form is more logical instead of using "miete iku". Hm, I got it.
Is it because the using of pattern "-naru you ni" explain it as a condition that will be changing in the future time?

---------- Post added at 10:25 ---------- Previous post was at 10:16 ----------

Elizabeth said:
Just FYI, Kikoeru, mieru, wakaru I think are actually considered a special class of verbs called spontaneous because they imply a process of perceiving something that elicits an involuntary or instinctive reaction from the viewer/listener separate from the regularly conjugated potential forms of kiku - kikeru, miru - mirareru etc.

I also read that sometimes verb 見える or 聞こえる are classified as 感覚動詞 or verb that relates to human sense.
So, by what characteristic does 見える/聞こえる has a function as sense-related verb, or a spontanious verb (自発)?

Can you Elizabeth help me solve this question, I am truly confuse...
Thanks a lot,

Toritoribe · 11 Jul 2012

Ira Nanapu said:
Is it because the using of pattern "-naru you ni" explain it as a condition that will be changing in the future time?

Yes, it's ようになる, though.

See the examples below.

この坂を上ると海が見える。
この坂を上ると海が見られる。

This 見える is a spontaneous(自発) verb. The former sentence means "When you climb the hill, you will see the sea automatically." Whereas the latter one expresses that you will be able to see the sea if you try to see. Thus, this 見られる has a volitional sense. That's the difference.

Ira Nanapu · 11 Jul 2012

Thanks to Tori san. 簡単に説明してくれてありがとうございます。
これからも，よろしくお願いします。

Your answer simplified my concept about those verbs. And I attempt to make it more describable on my paper. Wish me luck, then.

Elizabeth · 11 Jul 2012

Toritoribe said:
～ていく is hardly used even for the case. 聞き手に聞こえるよう/聞こえるようになるよう is appropriate.

Hmm.....Even the construction wakatte(i)tta doesn't look as popular as wakattekita from an individual standpoint used to retrospect on a how something was understood.

Can you say (聞き手)に見えていくよう ?? lol. I keep wondering if I haven't seen these patterns more than they apparently exist.

Toritoribe · 11 Jul 2012

Unlike 見える/聞こえる, わかっていく/わかってくる is used only for continuous action/movement in the time line. わかっていく makes perfect sense, as in 徐々にわかっていく.

I've checked 見えていく in a corpus and got zero results.

Elizabeth · 11 Jul 2012

A Google search on 見えていく came out with hits in the hundreds of millions. It's the foreigners. I'm going to have to think about wakatte iku.

Toritoribe · 11 Jul 2012

I've checked the first few pages of the google search results. It seems to me that 見えてくる is far more natural in ALL the examples.

Ira Nanapu · 11 Jul 2012

"これから先、あなたの耳に彼女の音楽がどういう風に聞こえていくのか変わっていく彼女を見てあなたはどう感じるのか自分なり言葉にしてみるのかそれはあなたの自由だ"

I just found it on a blog, I used JReK - Japanese Sentence Search, a Japanese sentence search engine.
This is totally confusing, LOL...

"kikoete iku no ka..." is the using of "no ka" could make it more logic?

:?

Toritoribe · 11 Jul 2012

Indeed it no doubt can convey what the writer wanted to say, but sounds awkward to me. It's definitely used as 聞こえるようになっていく.

aspect -te kuru/ -te iku + verb 見える/聞こえる

Ira Nanapu

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