Another woeful tale of the NOVA teacher

[Glenn]

In the end, the market will adjust itself.

If so many foreignors are truly unhappy with NOVA's policy, then they simply won't work for them for that reason, and NOVA will eventually suffer a shortage of teachers, forcing them to reconsider their policies (including raising wages) in order to attract more teachers. Same effect as going on a strike.

If they don't suffer a shortage of teachers, it means there are enough people out there who aren't so offended by NOVA's policy and can live with it. And the controversy over this non-dating policy will become a non-issue.

Yeah, that's pretty much where I was going with this:

I guess that a lot of people just want to make it to Japan, and then become dependent on NOVA for housing and salary, so they don't want to do anything that may cost them that.

 

[Golgo_13]

Secondly, NOVA isn't a real school and doesn't assign grades or give certificates, so there isn't the same conflict of interest as a University professor would have if he were to date a student. The teachers are not professionals and the service they provide can really be described more as entertainment than education.

That must mean NOVA is a "for-profit" business rather than a "non-profit" institution like a college or a university.

Businesses exist to make a profit, so all management decisions--such as employee policies--are made in an effort to maximize profit.

Frankly, I would rather work for a company that's doing well.

 

[senseiman]

In the end, the market will adjust itself.

If so many foreignors are truly unhappy with NOVA's policy, then they simply won't work for them for that reason, and NOVA will eventually suffer a shortage of teachers, forcing them to reconsider their policies (including raising wages) in order to attract more teachers. Same effect as going on a strike.

If they don't suffer a shortage of teachers, it means there are enough people out there who aren't so offended by NOVA's policy and can live with it. And the controversy over this non-dating policy will become a non-issue.

Its not just a matter of market principles at work, there are legal and ethical matters to consider too. Aren't you a lawyer? This is an obvious case of racial discrimination and as such it ought not to stand. This is blatantly illegal. Even if you think that in certain cases racial profiling is acceptable, like with your earlier airplane analogy, you have to admit that this case is fundamentally different. Airline security might take a closer look at young Middle easterner men than they do at elderly white women, but the airlines are clearly not allowed to issue a blanket ban against all muslims wishing to travel on their planes.

By simply banning all foreigners from social contact with Japanese students NOVA is obviously going beyond the bounds of what anyone could reasonably consider 'acceptable' discrimination (If such a concept exists). The only reason they've been able to get away with it so long is that their foreign workforce is mostly made up of young people who can't speak Japanese and have absolutely no knowledge of the Japanese legal system. Now it seems that, perhaps by accident, they have hired and screwed over a person who has knowledge of both Japan's language and its legal system and isn't willing to put up with this discrimination. I for one completely support him in his fight against NOVA.

That must mean NOVA is a "for-profit" business rather than a "non-profit" institution like a college or a university.

Businesses exist to make a profit, so all management decisions--such as employee policies--are made in an effort to maximize profit.

Frankly, I would rather work for a company that's doing well.

Actually, I thought it was quite clear from the context that what I meant was that NOVA teachers don't have the same sort of conflicts of interest as professors at degree or certificate-granting institutions because NOVA offers nothing of value to the students. It is possible for 'for profit' schools to offer decent and professional educational services, but NOVA does not do this. It hires people with absolutely no qualifications, gives them a very rudimentary training course, and then shunts them off into little glass cubicles to entertain people. From what I've heard there is very little in the way of curriculum and most of the 'lessons' are simply free conversations with no direction or purpose in them.

I have no problem whatsoever with NOVA offering 'lessons' of no educational value to people. If there is a market for it, then there is nothing wrong with them making money off of it. But I do have a problem with them trying to pass themselves off as a reputable school that offers a quality English education, because that is simply not true.

 

[Golgo_13]

. . . Yawn . . .

This is my last post on this topic, or I'll have to start billing you.



Then boycott them.

As for the alleged "racial discrimination", I have not read NOVA's employee guidelines but I AM SURE nowhere in there do they refer to the subject employees specifically as "white".

Just because they have a policy for their employees, many of whom happen to be foreignors, you don't necessarily establish discrimination based on race, if the same policy applies to ALL of their English teachers of ANY race, including Americans or Brazilians of Japanese descent.

But then again, you can't apply American legal standards in Japan, and I don't know Japanese employment law.

 

[senseiman]

...Yawn...

If I'm not mistaken, you were the one who started this thread. If you find the subject matter boring, then might I suggest finding material more in line with your interests to discuss.

This is my last post on this topic

Thank you. Your stunning insights will be missed.

As for the alleged "racial discrimination", I have not read NOVA's employee guidelines but I AM SURE nowhere in there do they refer to the subject employees specifically as "white".

Just because they have a policy for their employees, many of whom happen to be foreignors, you don't necessarily establish discrimination based on race, if the same policy applies to ALL of their English teachers of ANY race, including Americans or Brazilians of Japanese descent.

But then again, you can't apply American legal standards in Japan, and I don't know Japanese employment law.

So, basically you haven't had any idea what you were talking about all along? Their policy applies only to foreign staff. As long as you are Japanese you can talk to students anywhere and anytime you want. It doesn't say 'English teachers' can't socialize, it says 'foreign employees of NOVA' can't socialize. Therein, I believe, lies the discrimination. The company itself openly admits that it is the fact that they are foreigners, rather than their position inside the company, that provides the sole basis for the policy. The Osaka Bar association has found their policy to be illegal, and while their decision is not binding it certainly seems to carry a lot of weight.

 

[Golgo_13]

If I'm not mistaken, you were the one who started this thread. If you find the subject matter boring, then might I suggest finding material more in line with your interests to discuss.

The topic doesn't bore me. I'm happy to discuss it anyone else. It bores the **** out o' me to discuss it with

YOU

[/QUOTE]

Thank you. Your stunning insights will be missed.

Your stunning personal attack is also very stunningly boring

"So, basically you haven't had any idea what you were talking about all along? Their policy applies only to foreign staff. As long as you are Japanese you can talk to students anywhere and anytime you want. It doesn't say 'English teachers' can't socialize, it says 'foreign employees of NOVA' can't socialize. Therein, I believe, lies the discrimination."

So YOU had no idea what I was trying to explain to your feeble mind.

Japanese-Americans and/or Japanese-Canadians, Japanese-Brazilians would also be "foreign" employees, but they would not be able to claim "racial discrimination" against someone of their own race.

If the policy does indeed apply explicitly to ALL FOREIGN employees, then it's not directed towards anyone of any particular race.

If you had the brains to say "discrimination based on national origin" you would've been right. But you--along with everyone else in this thread--have been screaming "racial discrimination." You can't establish that.

 

[senseiman]

Sorry for attacking you. But your little 'yawn' rubbed me the wrong way, as it would anyone. If discussing this with me bores you, simply stop posting. There is no need to rub it in.

I haven't said it was racial discrimination in any of my posts here. I said 'discrimination' which I believe would include 'discrimination based on national origin'. Though on re-reading your earlier post I can see that you were only talking about 'racial' discrimination and I can concede the point there.

At any rate, it seems that 'discrimination based on national origin' is also a no-no here, so the basic argument that NOVA's policies are discriminatory and (probably) illegal still stands.

 

[Golgo_13]

It's not just a matter of market principles at work, there are legal and ethical matters to consider too. Aren't you a lawyer? This is an obvious case of racial discrimination and as such it ought not to stand.

Just for the record, I work for the firm of Dewey, Cheatham & Howe LLP , but I never said I am currently a practicing attorney.

I do, however, work in corporate litigation and know a thing or two about civil procedure. If you make a tort claim (e.g., racial discrimination) you need the proper basis on which to make it (e.g., Employee handbook explicitly bans WHITE employees from a certain activity).

In the case we have here, I did not see that the basis supported the claim, unless it was for national-origin discrimination.

 

[Buddha Smoker]

No reason to start arguements...this place does offer good debates. After all, it's your own opinion that counts but it's nice to see different point of views.

 

[senseiman]

I stand corrected, I did use the term racial discrimination. My bad.

Just out of curiousity, is there any actual difference in the way the law treats discrimination based on national origin and discrimination based on race?

Now that I think about it though, you could make the legal case that this was racial discimination. In the US I know you have to prove that there is some sort of policy or rule that intentionally targets a racial group. But in a lot of European countries, you only have to prove that the rule or policy has the effect (even without the intention) of discriminating against a racial group for it to be considered discriminatory. Thus NOVA's policy, as it disproportionately effects people of non-Japanese racial backgrounds could be considered a form of racial discrimination under those terms.

 

[playaa]

So, say in the U.S. I see it daily about teacher / student relationships, and teacher's going to jail everyday because of it... Though to me age should never have anything to do with love in SOME cases. The law says it does all the time, well in the U.S. anyways..

But if you took it the wrong way I correct what I said so you may understand a little better, What I am saying is it is ok to ban RELATIONSHIPS between teachers/students, not friendships.. As friendships never hurt anything until they become something more, then it can effect work it is just simple fact. Love gets in the way of peoples work all the time, I see people do nothing at work and don't get fired simply because their husband is the boss or their boyfriend or whatever the situation may be. It is just simply the nature of it. Argument bar none.

 

[Golgo_13]

Just out of curiousity, is there any actual difference in the way the law treats discrimination based on national origin and discrimination based on race?

If an Irish-born employee is fired from a job in the U.S. and the employee has enough basis to show that it was because of his heavy Irish accent, he might be able to claim a case for a "national-origin" discrimination, but obviously NOT racial discrimination if the employer is also white.

Punitive damages could be higher in race-based cases than in national-origin cases because there are certain so-called "protected class" of racial minorities, e.g., blacks, hispanics, indians, eskimos against whom the public are "expected" not to be prejudiced against, whereas all foreign nationalities are regarded pretty much equally.

The chances of winning a jury trial increases in a discrimination case the more different the plaintiff is from the defendant employer. E.g., an overweight handicapped Eskimo lesbian has a better shot at proving discrimination than a white Irish male in his 20s in the above example. :sorry:

 

[janimagee]

Time to take a poll, to all present or former eikaiwa school teachers. How many of you met and married a student from your school???

 

[Golgo_13]

Or teaching in the public schools and met and married a colleague.

 

[Buddha Smoker]

Or teaching in the public schools and met and married a colleague.

But we should put up a poll...I'm curious myself.

 

[Golgo_13]

Only if we also include people who have had negative experiences, just to show the other side of the coin.

 

[senseiman]

Thanks for the explanation, goglo.

I'm married to a former co-worker at an Eikaiwa chain. From my circle of acquaintances it seemed that dating/marrying co-workers was far more common than going out with students.

 

[Buddha Smoker]

Only if we also include people who have had negative experiences, just to show the other side of the coin.

Maybe they'll turn up..LOL..

I met my wife almost 10 years ago through a friend at a sushi bar...go figure

 

[janimagee]

o.k. then the other poll will be, how many of (us) you met your mate in a bar???

 

[Buddha Smoker]

o.k. then the other poll will be, how many of (us) you met your mate in a bar???

Does a sushi bar count?

 

[janimagee]

absolutely!! !!!!!

 

[Golgo_13]

If it's a singles' sushi bar.

What about a salad bar?

 

[Buddha Smoker]

If it's a singles' sushi bar.

What about a salad bar?

So, Baby, how is the cottage cheese tonight?

 

[Golgo_13]

What's so about that?

Comedy is all timing.

 

[Buddha Smoker]

What's so about that?

Comedy is all timing.

You're very opinioned sometimes.

I was just imagining someone trying to pick someone up at a salad bar.