Angry outbursts

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Karakuri

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Anyone ever had to deal with a Japanese person suddenly getting mad at you after bottling something up for a long time? I know this happens in any country, but in Japan people seem especially unable to work out their conflicts and emotions rationally. I've had an uncle and a penpal do it so far, and my own mother to some degree, and judging from my knowledge of Japanese society it seems like it might be a really common problem.

The problem being that they hold in all their anger and resentment, feeling like they can't talk about it, which leads to it all being released in the most immature way possible (angry name calling) instead of calmly working things out. If you try to explain your side of the story, they act like you're too "logical" and that Japanese can communicate without speaking (hah!) and thus communication should be unnecessary. My uncle was especially into this Nihonjinron stuff about Japanese being "wet", irrational and pure people with no need for logic, that made him unable to see my side of things or come to terms with our disagreements.

I'm a pretty rational person, though I'm also quite emotional and overly sensitive. I know there are a lot of times in Japanese society where you just have to suck it up, but I believe in being honest where it counts, and that means letting a friend or family member know when there's a problem. When I move to Japan, am I going to have to deal with this all the time? If so, any advice on dealing with it?
 
Do not you make a mistake with the next country?

The most typical thing might be a violence.
That is, even feelings are not restrained.
I thought the Japanese express even feelings least.

Because most Japanese doesn't describe the result from own experience logically...
It is not made a stereotype by own experience or imagination Even if it is many
That is, the prejudice overflows in the mind of the pockmark without statistics ?
 
That's news to me... Most people control their feelings very well and although Japan seems to shy away from confrontal situations, problems are either worked out in a civil manner or they are fogotten and put behind them. Obviously it depends on the person to how they react, and also whether they will hold a grudge against something or someone, but I rarely see the immature outbursts you speak of. There are always going to be "those" people who can't seem to function in with the "norm" and can cause a scene, but again they are definitely in the minority.

I believe westerners go over the top much more frequently and act with imaturity when it comes to dealing with problems.
 
You might be reaching out a bit too much for an explanation and ignoring just the person themselves. This of course happens in other countries as well, but it seems that you may be the one grabbing at nihonjinron for explanations of just bad behavior from time to time.

I think the only way you'd be able to tell is to compare situations and personalities much deeper than what is possible on this forum.
 
Karakuri said:
Anyone ever had to deal with a Japanese person suddenly getting mad at you after bottling something up for a long time? I know this happens in any country, but in Japan people seem especially unable to work out their conflicts and emotions rationally. I've had an uncle and a penpal do it so far, and my own mother to some degree, and judging from my knowledge of Japanese society it seems like it might be a really common problem.
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Are you talking about anger against foreigners ? I have been the target of what would be considered unacceptable Japanese-Japanese behavior. Not redirected, irrational 'scapegoating' because my own actions were largely what brought it on. But I suppose we need to have a clearer picture of the scenarios alluded to in the original post.
 
It's a relief to hear that maybe it /is/ just the individuals I've dealt with and maybe I am just overgeneralizing. I'm generally prone to say (as tactfully as possible, heh) when I disagree with someone whose opinion I care about (friends or family), though, and in Japan that's frowned upon so much that some people just take it as a personal attack. But, as you say that's probably more affected by individual dispositions than culture.
I can't say if my experiences are of outbursts against foreigners or other Japanese, as I'm a halfie. Maybe people feel they can express their anger more at me because they don't have to be polite in the way they would with a foreigner? For example, when I was staying with my aunt and uncle, a lot of things like the time I woke up, the /footsteps/ I made walking up the stairs, my giving him advice using the computer (he always had computer trouble with his work and was /abysmal/ at using them) and all kinds of little things would add up and he'd say he was putting up with ("gaman") all this stuff and suddenly get mad about it. I also decided never to talk to him about my opinions of Japan vs other cultures because it'd start him on this long lecture about how Japan is unique and I could never understand, even though at the same time he'd tell me I had to try and act "Japanese". You know, I think I should just not take him so seriously, heh. Luckily my aunt was rather more understanding. It sure was a culture shock living with them though.
 
It is simply because he is your relative to spend (or kill) time to chat with you over something related to Japan.
Probably, a rational person can easily draw a conclusion just after one or two (particular) cases, but I am just waiting for your another thread, something like "how indifferent the Japanese society is!!!", after coming to Japan.
 
Karakuri said:
It's a relief to hear that maybe it /is/ just the individuals I've dealt with and maybe I am just overgeneralizing. I'm generally prone to say (as tactfully as possible, heh) when I disagree with someone whose opinion I care about (friends or family), though, and in Japan that's frowned upon so much that some people just take it as a personal attack. But, as you say that's probably more affected by individual dispositions than culture.
I can't say if my experiences are of outbursts against foreigners or other Japanese, as I'm a halfie. Maybe people feel they can express their anger more at me because they don't have to be polite in the way they would with a foreigner? For example, when I was staying with my aunt and uncle, a lot of things like the time I woke up, the /footsteps/ I made walking up the stairs, my giving him advice using the computer (he always had computer trouble with his work and was /abysmal/ at using them) and all kinds of little things would add up and he'd say he was putting up with ("gaman") all this stuff and suddenly get mad about it. I also decided never to talk to him about my opinions of Japan vs other cultures because it'd start him on this long lecture about how Japan is unique and I could never understand, even though at the same time he'd tell me I had to try and act "Japanese". You know, I think I should just not take him so seriously, heh. Luckily my aunt was rather more understanding. It sure was a culture shock living with them though.
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There is culture shock, naturally, under the most auspicious circumstances. Are you planning to go and live there more than a year experiencing the entire trip as a way to learn the culture, meet and interact with native people, etc. ?

Share opinions in a way designed to elicit a "gaman" response, so that you can later "read" their reactions for guidance on how to proceed, and yeah, curiously enough there are people, particularly strangers, who won't take it as a benign attempt at reaching out in mutual understanding...😌

Keep us updated ! :-)
 
The funny thing is, he says the same thing to everyone about Japan being unique because it's the only country with 4 seasons, etc. and it's more like preaching than chatting. I could predict pretty accurately when he'd start the exact same lecture up with someone else, and I'd come back half an hour later and they'd still be nodding politely at him and not daring to oppose anything. He'd always go on about how stupid America, is, too (not just criticism, but "baka na kuni da", stuff like that), and I'd just have to nod politely at that. (My penpal was also completely unreserved about bashing on America...) So you can see why I often expressed disagreement in these conversations.

I've spent a year there before, and plan to spend even longer there again - because despite what I write here I love Japan - but this time I'm going to tread more softly and seek out all kinds of company to counter my initial impressions, because they weren't all that pleasant.

EDIT: Hm, I was confused there by what you meant by a "gaman" response, because I couldn't really detect when they were bottling something up (thus the outbursts later), but maybe I will be able to now.
 
There sure are, but it's not just anger it's a whole plethora of emotions.
Suicides and random murders, extremely random sex crimes where the offender is quoted as saying things like 'I saw her and just couldn't resist' or 'I just had to', etc. I think there's a lot of repression in Japanese society which stems from the need to keep a straight, public face at all times, which in turn keeps the whole society moving like a well-oiled machine.

The lighter side of this, well with things so tightly wound up, it's no wonder the Japanese sometimes drink themselves into oblivion and get so crazy and hilarious. There are ups and downs.

Overall I think Japanese people (in my humble experience and just from the number of times I've seen/heard it discussed frankly in the media during human-interest programs. More so radio) are quietly self-admitting of the amount of mental illness in their society. But unfortunately the way they handle it is self-perpetuating, by and large they ignore and shun the mentally ill.
 
bakaKanadajin said:
There sure are, but it's not just anger it's a whole plethora of emotions.
Suicides and random murders, extremely random sex crimes where the offender is quoted as saying things like 'I saw her and just couldn't resist' or 'I just had to', etc. I think there's a lot of repression in Japanese society which stems from the need to keep a straight, public face at all times, which in turn keeps the whole society moving like a well-oiled machine.
...
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Your profiling is interesting, but it is a suicidal mistake if you bring up the crime.

But don't worry, my gut feeling tells me your country has a super positive misunderstanding among Japanese as the J embassy lightly warns...

Iﾂ ﾂ祥愬陳ｾ
ﾆ谷ﾆ段ﾆ胆窶堙固ｽﾂ｡ﾋ??窶堙坂?佚･窶徭ﾅｽs窶堙戸?ｪ窶｢窶昶?堙娯?冢ﾋ?ｦ窶堙遺?堙??堙ｰﾂ焦凪?堋ｯ窶堙篠、窶｢ﾃ?坂?倪?堙俄?敕､窶堙冷?堙??氾??堋｢窶堙??堙戸?ｳﾂ湘帚?堙ｰ窶堋ｨﾅｽﾂ昶?堋ｿ窶堋ｩ窶堙?窶堋ｵ窶堙ｪ窶堙懌?堋ｹ窶堙ｱﾂ。窶堋ｵ窶堋ｩ窶堋ｵﾂ、
I. Preface
You might have an image that Canadian cities with some exceptions are safer than the ones in the US. However,
外務省
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===
Curious to know what the underlying repression is in Australia or Canada, but it seems off-topic.
 
pipokun san, your comment was a little difficult to follow.

But as for the link you presented:

Aside from basic information on the possibility (just the posibility) of things like SARS, bird flu, a lot of rain, etc...(that is, the basic possibilities that exist not just in Canada but anywhere throughout the world), the only special and noteworthy information is that, as with America, violent crime exists. That isn't anything new, and carries with it more of a 'disclaimer' feeling rather than a formal warning. Like, they have to say so, otherwise they can't say they did. They put warning labels on a lot of things these days. Is that necessarily indicative of a trend?

Speaking of trends:

List of countries by suicide rate - Wikipedia

Suicide in Japan - Wikipedia
 
Interesting subject, and I am partially to blame

There are a lot of good topics being discussed within this excellent thread.

Frustrated Dave's comment... "I believe westerners go over the top much more frequently and act with imaturity when it comes to dealing with problems. "

Sadly, that may describe too many of my own personal confrontations...I do seem to react negatively, and sooner rather than later in too many questionable times.

And yet, I am confronted with multiple social interactions each day in my job, in many communities, with complete strangers, some frankly "up to no good".

And yes, I have been mugged, with the opening lines as they approach, almost universally..."Hey man, can you spare some change?", or the classic, "I need your help", or ..."Can you do me a favor?"

But to cut matters short here, I could go on and on, the stereotypical Asian (pardon my perceptions, no meaning to offend), is that Asians seem to "hide their face", as in, "hide their true feelings". This accomplishes two things, in my mind: one, it gives a ten second interval to any misunderstanding, should the emotions escalate, and two, you never want to "show your hand", or "show your true feelings".

Americans I have found, which includes all races, react immediately with "hey, not my problem", or..."Nope", even "Sorry man, stay away from me", and worst of all, "Back off man, you are in my space" or the deadly "F-off".

New Yorkers will give everyone 3 seconds of courtesy, they really will, but any approach of complete strangers is most probably suspect, "He/she wants something from me", with red flags immediately thrown up!

So we have polar opposites of reactions, in two different continents.

You might know, there is also the wonderful topic of "space". How "close, is too close".

Two feet is probably too close for strangers in the United States. 18 inches is almost a fight or a shove-off.

In my situation, with the economy is dire straits, and my job dwindling down, and me using someone else's car to do my job, and my license on the line, and literally my livelihood and my life are at stake, I sadly can go incindiary in a heartbeet, if any of those factors are carelessly threatened which is the case too often.

I owe many persons apologies, for perceived threats where I "went off", but I kick myself for other situations where I was suckered into verbal confrontations/muggings where I played "nice guy", and lost many, many times in the ensuing meltdown.

These are interesting cultural dichotomies.
 
bakaKanadajin said:
pipokun san, your comment was a little difficult to follow.
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Sentence #1: Suicides and random murders, extremely random sex crimes where the offender is quoted as saying things like 'I saw her and just couldn't resist' or 'I just had to', etc.
Sentence #2:I think there's a lot of repression in Japanese society which stems from the need to keep a straight, public face at all times, which in turn keeps the whole society moving like a well-oiled machine.

What I don't understand in your post is that I cannot follow your logic in the sentences above.
Correct me I am wrong, but what you want to say is...
A lot of repression in Japanese society leads to suicides and random murders, extremely random sex crimes.

If I were a person from the society where its crime rate is two to four times higher than Japan, I would conclude a bit different story from yours.

Other thing I did not say in my last post is about the mysterious radio programs. I don't know what they are, but I suppose it is just a telephone counseling/advice program or something. Someone like Mino Monta is just an ordinary show host comparing with super provocative ones in North America. I don't listen to radio much now, though.

Anyways, the Karakuri's case is rather interesting that a person who stayed in Japan for a year did not say anything about deadly silent situations in one's daily life. I know an Aussie guy who jokes about the noisy announcements in a train/bus, but praise the silence on board.
Different uncles, different stories.
 
Karakuri, in your original post you just described my Japanese MIL to a T. She'll be fine for months and then suddenly explodes, seemingly because I can't telepathically read her mind and anticipate her wishes. And when it comes to logic - she has none and says she doesn't need it, because "it's all in the heart". And then she says that a Japanese person would have no problem communicating with her without speaking. Oddly enough, her own, very Japanese son can't do it either.
 
pipokun said:
Sentence #1: Suicides and random murders, extremely random sex crimes where the offender is quoted as saying things like 'I saw her and just couldn't resist' or 'I just had to', etc.
Sentence #2:I think there's a lot of repression in Japanese society which stems from the need to keep a straight, public face at all times, which in turn keeps the whole society moving like a well-oiled machine.

What I don't understand in your post is that I cannot follow your logic in the sentences above.
Correct me I am wrong, but what you want to say is...
A lot of repression in Japanese society leads to suicides and random murders, extremely random sex crimes.

If I were a person from the society where its crime rate is two to four times higher than Japan, I would conclude a bit different story from yours.

Other thing I did not say in my last post is about the mysterious radio programs. I don't know what they are, but I suppose it is just a telephone counseling/advice program or something. Someone like Mino Monta is just an ordinary show host comparing with super provocative ones in North America. I don't listen to radio much now, though.

Anyways, the Karakuri's case is rather interesting that a person who stayed in Japan for a year did not say anything about deadly silent situations in one's daily life. I know an Aussie guy who jokes about the noisy announcements in a train/bus, but praise the silence on board.
Different uncles, different stories.
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Pipokun you seem to be getting defensive here in thinking that bakakanadajin is trying to demonize Japan. All of the crimes he speaks of happen in all societies. I think he is simply alluding to the fact that in Japan's case, some of the strict social norms and pressures could be what drives people to commit those crimes here. Whereas in the States or wherever, it could be poverty, drugs or gang violence etc.
 
Chidoriashi said:
Pipokun you seem to be getting defensive here in thinking that bakakanadajin is trying to demonize Japan. All of the crimes he speaks of happen in all societies.
...
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No, I did not post here to defend something.

some of the strict social norms and pressures could be what drives people to commit those crimes here.
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<This link is missing here.>
Isn't it the same thing to say the social norms or whatever could be what drives people not to commit the crimes? Of course, I don't say here no crime here.
Whereas in the States or wherever, it could be poverty, drugs or gang violence etc.
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Thanks for all your thoughts.

bakaKanadajin's post makes sense to me - in a society where you can let out your anger freely, and resolve conflicts right here and now without fear of "making a scene", the pressure gets released before it can build up and fester into resentment. I'm not saying this is a good thing, as it's obviously another extreme. It's a sign of maturity to delay your own emotional needs, and pick a time and place to reveal them. But it's also mature to communicate your boundaries to others who try to cross them, because if you don't, it'll be taken as a sign of weakness, which can be dangerous.

I think expectation and responsibility play a big role here.

It's very much a conflict of "yo wo kezuru ka, jibun wo kezuru ka" - change the world or change yourself - and we are expected to draw this line differently in each culture, and are rewarded or punished differently as well. This gives us strong convictions about where the line should be drawn, and resentment toward others who haven't drawn the same line as us - and aren't being punished for what we were once punished for. If we feel obligated to others, and fulfil those obligations at some cost to ourselves, then seeing someone with no obligation on their mind would naturally annoy us.

In Japan, you may be expected to bring gifts, repeated thank yous for a previous favor, inviting someone over in return - and if you don't, you might annoy someone. They won't tell you, of course, so they'll just be a little more venomous next time you meet them - to the point where they might make /you/ mad, and so the cycle continues until both parties lose patience and wonder why the hell the other disappoints their expectations of good behaviour. According to us gaijin, we may find fault with a Japanese for not communicating their feelings to us, and to Japanese, we may be thought childish and thoughtless. After being in Japan, I get annoyed at some of my more Aussie friends who don't "consider my feelings". But I realize, they truly don't know - and need to be told outright, because they live in a world where /open communication/ is rewarded and /suppression of emotions/ is punished - they would be thought of as neurotic, passive-aggressive and unfair to act in Australia the way a Japanese may be expected to act. These differences in expectation cause differences in perception of responsibility, which is bound to make people angry pretty fast. Reminds me of my housemate who thinks it's ok to go to bed while friends are still in the house, and I get annoyed when I have to entertain them - she just wonders why I bothered entertaining them instead of telling them it's too late!

Re pipokun, I do appreciate, and often fear, the "silence" in Japan, but I'm not sure what you meant by it in your post.

Re Chidoriashi - I'm sorry to hear that. It must have been pretty stressful to go through. I'll bet your MIL felt justified, too, because to talk too much about those things would make her "rikutsuppoi" (too logical/pedantic), and the same unrelenting "consideration" is expected of her - and we all expect from others what's been expected of ourselves.
 
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I'm usually loath to try to explain away personal issues and conflicts as a matter of cultural differences, but there's a few interesting points to address here.

The non-confrontational approach of quiet "gaman" has been hailed as promoting a peaceful environment, but I believe we all have our boiling points, and the only way this approach can be effective is if we truly let things slide, instead of letting them pile up like dirty laundry waiting to be aired out. The main problem here is that as these little annoyances quietly add up, the offender has no idea, as the offended pretends that all is well while they are secretly steeping in their own agitation.

This may work in the short run for temporary situations, but as time goes on the offender continues to offend, unknowingly. The offended continues to get irritated, and is trapped by their own "tolerance." Their only recourse is perhaps to complain in secret to a third party, which may unfairly paint the offender as doing it on purpose, or equally unfairly, of being ignorant of "the way things are done." Otherwise, the irritation spoils and becomes anger, and may boil over into an explosive situation over truly trivial matters.

Annoyance may manifest itself in a number of ways, depending on the individual. The "subtle" hints that there is something amiss may provoke the offender to ask if anything is wrong, to which it's uncommon for the offended to be honest about what's bothering them. Lack of communication is the real issue. The small offenses aren't enough on their own to cause such friction; they either need to be completely forgiven, or talked about and resolved.

In cases like this, nihonjinron is often invoked because it's easier to claim "that's just how Japanese people are" than admit that there's a flaw in their approach to conflict resolution. "Gaman" is not the same thing as being forgiving or accepting of others, because it relies on the assumption that the offender is going to eventually realize what they're doing "wrong" and correct themselves, or that someone else will quietly correct them, or that the situation is only temporary so they just have to put up with it for now. Neither party is a mind reader, so without talking about the problems, they add up until they strain the relationship.
 
nice gaijin said:
Annoyance may manifest itself in a number of ways, depending on the individual. The "subtle" hints that there is something amiss may provoke the offender to ask if anything is wrong, to which it's uncommon for the offended to be honest about what's bothering them. Lack of communication is the real issue. The small offenses aren't enough on their own to cause such friction; they either need to be completely forgiven, or talked about and resolved.
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The only way I've been able to keep from being totally blown away by the minefield of Japanese interpersonal expectations, emotional communication, expectancy violations, etc that don't speak to you directly is with the aid of a partner. Someone who it only took a few days to unhesitatingly clue me in on Japanese contextual and social and cultural expectations but who also demonstrates overtly the distinction between genuine warmth and politeness for civil society. It only took five years of offending each other practically every week, but, hey, Patience is also very important. :D

No doubt your uncle and others incorrectly assumed a nearly fluent half-native was more strongly connected to the cultural traditions of their ethnic heritage and came with a greater awareness of cultural norms than apparently was the case. Mutual understanding only assumes social differences not so drastic that they can be overcome as well as both parties reaching past their natural defensiveness to appreciate that anger and frustration usually evolves more from misunderstandings than outright hostility or indifference. It doesn't require an attitude of mindless Japanophilia. Many natives make the same critiques of their harmony at all costs society as these posts. Anyway, it sounds like you are well on the way to at least an uneasy attunement with both these aspects.

Good luck ! :)
 
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pipokun said:
What I don't understand in your post is that I cannot follow your logic in the sentences above.
Correct me I am wrong, but what you want to say is...
A lot of repression in Japanese society leads to suicides and random murders, extremely random sex crimes.

If I were a person from the society where its crime rate is two to four times higher than Japan, I would conclude a bit different story from yours.
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I think the strict social norms are more commonly natural triggers for violations against the self, anger internally directed, than violent crime, although that could be breaking loose as overall social change in the direction of openness continues.

Anyway, the comments remind me of the story of that retired cop turned NPO "suicide prevention" counselor running around Tojinbo beach Fukui who said "We patrol for people who aren't carrying cameras or souvenirs, who walk with eyes lowered, who seem out of place..."

Which incidentally sounds like about 70% of the general population to me...☝

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1904132,00.html
 
I think the strict social norms are more commonly natural triggers for violations against the self, anger internally directed, than violent crime, although that could be breaking loose as overall social change in the direction of openness continues.
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i think it is opposite though it is used to be
that is why Hikikomoris are increased in Japan
 
Elizabeth said:
I think the strict social norms are more commonly natural triggers for violations against the self, anger internally directed, than violent crime, although that could be breaking loose as overall social change in the direction of openness continues.

Anyway, the comments remind me of the story of that retired cop turned NPO "suicide prevention" counselor running around Tojinbo beach Fukui who said ﾂ"We patrol for people who aren't carrying cameras or souvenirs, who walk with eyes lowered, who seem out of place..."

Which incidentally sounds like about 70% of the general population to me...☝

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1904132,00.html
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Right about the suicide. If I add something more, it is more about economic norms. After the Great Depression, the US enforced non-recourse loan. On the other hand, bankrupted Japanese have to carry debt on their back with life insurance whispering something sweet. I cannot say which is better considering greediness is out of the fairness.

It is more interesting that a bit more posters from the 70% or the rest 30% came to say it is just a personal story and add a :eek:here.
Or more interesting if someone from an English speaking country shares a bit honnne joke about a phrase like below at Izakaya or somewhere.
According to us gaijin, we...
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In this case, someone I mean is not from Australia because the OP is from there.
 
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