All a bit intimidating...

g0b · 31 Jan 2008

Started learning Japanese a couple of days ago, nothing official just using the net in my own time. Came across numerous sites and I've pretty much got the numbering system down. Key words like "Ja ne" , "watashi wa Harry Desu" etc

I'm now confused as to how this translates into the Kanji (Thats the lettering/alphabet system?) I have no idea how words have their own individual symbol, that surely means there's millions?

I can understand the symbols for numbers; +- is 11 (sorry, basic keyboard)

Also, why do some sites say 4 is Shi and others Yon. The same is true for Nana (7) not sure what the other word was though.

Oh, and is Japanese written horizontally or vertically? :S

Sorry! I have so many questions! Being somewhat naive and learning a language on my own is fairly intimidating. Especially Japanese! Oh, the reason I'm learning is because I'm taking a gap year in Japan (seriously considering permanent residency anyway) and teaching English. Can't wait!

Thanks for reading.

Haruspex · 31 Jan 2008

The kanji have meaning yes, at the same time they have multiple readings, multiple pronunciations that is, well most of them. Also, they can be combined. So basically you have several ! (factorial) possibilities, of course not all combinations are used/have a meaning.
As an example I will answer your other question
四 can be read as yon or shi
七 as nana or shichi
Although note that except for nana and yon those numbers have chinese origins.

g0b · 31 Jan 2008

Mm, just to demonstrate how naive I am (again...)

If I found myself in Japan, and only had the ability to write like "genki desu ka" would people understand that? Or only the Kanji?

Thinking about signs and things, they're all in Kanji too?

Pachipro · 31 Jan 2008

Once you begin to get a firm grasp of Japanese writing and the language as a whole, you'll come to understand that not all Japanese is written in Kanji like Chinese. "Genki desu ka?" or whatever you choose to write in hiragana/katagana, will be understood by all Japanese.

Japanese writing is comprised of Kanji, hiragana, and katagana which all can be combined in one sentence like the simplified, "Hello, my name is Kevin. I am 21 and I live in Tokyo." こんにちわ私の名前はケビンです。私は二十一才です。私は東京にすんでいます。

Once you get practice and get the hang of it, it will all come together for you. It will be all the more easier if you live in Japan, but that is easier said than done.

g0b · 31 Jan 2008

The program that the Gap Year company puts you on states that to teach English in Japan one doesn't need any knowledge of the Japanese language before going. Would it be a better idea just to go without knowing much/any and learning Japanese while I am in Japan?

How will I get by in Japan without a knowledge of the language? How can I teach Japanese students English without speaking Japanese myself?

Pachipro · 31 Jan 2008

As is stated many times on this site, you do need to speak Japanese in order to teach English. All you need is a 4 yr degree from any university. To teach English in Japanese conversation schools, most prefer that you do not speak any Japanese. Hard to believe I know, but it's true. And easy to do.

I do not know about the Gap Year company so I cannot comment, but if you go to Japan to teach without learning any Japanese before you go, you'll still be able to survive and, if you're serious about learning the language, you'll pick it up much faster than learning it in your own country. You'll get by quite easily as you'll understand from reading and searching this forum. Many people have lived many years in Japan without even bothering to learn even the basics of the language and they have got on quite well. Sad, but true.

Haruspex · 31 Jan 2008

Pachipro said:
most prefer that you do not speak any Japanese. Hard to believe I know, but it's true. And easy to do.

Well, you can always lie can't you?

g0b · 31 Jan 2008

Pachipro said:
As is stated many times on this site, you do need to speak Japanese in order to teach English. All you need is a 4 yr degree from any university. To teach English in Japanese conversation schools, most prefer that you do not speak any Japanese. Hard to believe I know, but it's true. And easy to do.
I do not know about the Gap Year company so I cannot comment, but if you go to Japan to teach without learning any Japanese before you go, you'll still be able to survive and, if you're serious about learning the language, you'll pick it up much faster than learning it in your own country. You'll get by quite easily as you'll understand from reading and searching this forum. Many people have lived many years in Japan without even bothering to learn even the basics of the language and they have got on quite well. Sad, but true.

Well, I've got a year now before I go... I'll learn as much as I can in that time. In one night and I've mastered the numerical system (it's really quite easy, a lot of repetition) as well as basic phrases such as Watashi wa Harry desu, nama biiru etc

I hope at this rate + official lessons half way through this year I'll really be ahead of the game =)

What are your thoughts on this?

Charles Barkley · 31 Jan 2008

Studying before you go over will really help you hit the ground running. I studied for maybe 5-6 months, an hour or so every day, and this gave me a huge advantage over JETs who hadn't studied much at all before coming. One thing I hadn't done was have any audio practice, aside from watching a few movies with subtitles on (which honestly does very very little), so if you are on top of things and use internet audio/video learning resources, that will really help. In my case, I knew vocab words but wouldn't recognize them when they were said--a bit of a pain. Just make sure your hiragana and katakana is down pat before you go over.

One more thing: try to resist the temptation to say you have mastered anything--when you say you have mastered the numbers, you've master the 2nd system for counting as well? i.e., hitotsu, futatsu, mittsu, yottsu, itsutsu, etc? I still confuse myself with the numbers on occassion, and I've gotten to a fairly advanced level. I think its better to talk about your progress in terms of the amount of work you have put in, rather than some arbitrary scale of ability. You work harder and stay more humble that way.

g0b · 31 Jan 2008

Charles Barkley said:
Studying before you go over will really help you hit the ground running. I studied for maybe 5-6 months, an hour or so every day, and this gave me a huge advantage over JETs who hadn't studied much at all before coming. One thing I hadn't done was have any audio practice, aside from watching a few movies with subtitles on (which honestly does very very little), so if you are on top of things and use internet audio/video learning resources, that will really help. In my case, I knew vocab words but wouldn't recognize them when they were said--a bit of a pain. Just make sure your hiragana and katakana is down pat before you go over.
One more thing: try to resist the temptation to say you have mastered anything--when you say you have mastered the numbers, you've master the 2nd system for counting as well? i.e., hitotsu, futatsu, mittsu, yottsu, itsutsu, etc? I still confuse myself with the numbers on occassion, and I've gotten to a fairly advanced level. I think its better to talk about your progress in terms of the amount of work you have put in, rather than some arbitrary scale of ability. You work harder and stay more humble that way.

Well, to be honest with you I didn't know there was more than one numbering system, the one I have been learning is probably the most basic. What's the reasoning for having more than one numbering system anyways?

Thanks for replying, I am having real trouble trying to learn the katakana or hiragana, not quite sure how to go about learning that on my own. ☝

The7thSamurai · 1 Feb 2008

g0b said:
Well, to be honest with you I didn't know there was more than one numbering system, the one I have been learning is probably the most basic. What's the reasoning for having more than one numbering system anyways?
Thanks for replying, I am having real trouble trying to learn the katakana or hiragana, not quite sure how to go about learning that on my own. ☝

The counting system is not too hard to understand. The words (numbers) you use to count things with differ based usually on the shape of the objects you're counting. For example, CDs and t-shirts are flat so you'd use the "mai" counter. For humans you use "nin" (numbers 1 and 2 are acceptions in this case). For pens, bananas, tubs, or anything that's cylindrical you use the "hon" counter. For small animals and filthy street urchins you use the "hiki" counter. There are hundreds. Never fear though, there is a generic counter which you'll come across early on in your study (hitotsu, futatsu, mitsu, yotsu...) which can be used to count most things.

This does sound daunting but we have a similar thing in English for non-count nouns. E.g. you can't say, "I'll have two toasts please", but rather "two pieces of toast". Slices of cake, cups of coffee, bowls of cerial, cans of beer etc etc.

EvilCowSlayer · 4 Feb 2008

I sort of powered my way through the hiragana and katakana. What I did was make a chart of all the kana, then I opened up a manga and started transliterating it, one kana at a time (the manga I used also had furigana, which gives the readings of kanji). At the level I was at then, I couldn't understand anything I was transliterating, but I learned the kana really quickly.

One thing I didn't do that you might want to is copy the kana as you read them. Just because you can read a kana or kanji doesn't mean you can write it, so it's important to practice your writing, too. Don't worry about copying kanji at this point, just its kana reading.

One last thing. Anytime you come across something that seems really daunting (e.g. kanji) just remember that all languages have these parts that are a pain to learn (e.g. English spelling).

g0b · 4 Feb 2008

Thanks, that's what I've been doing. Well, near enough. Translating but having no idea what the Romaji means

magevampjoe · 4 Feb 2008

Romaji is where you type japanese in latin characters / alphabet.
Japanese people are taught latin symbols so they can read 'genki desu' without symbols, although they are used to symbols.

Also, although I may be disagreed with, I would say that as you are expanding your vocabulary, you need to learn the kanji and their readings in kana (kana refers to both hiragana and katakana). This way you will learn vocab and kanji. I got this idea from
Learn Japanese – Tae Kim's Guide to Learning Japanese
which is a really helpful site.

I agree with EvilCowSlayer - try the transliterating thing with mangas.

Good luck.
Joe

Haruspex · 4 Feb 2008

magevampjoe said:
I agree with EvilCowSlayer - try the transliterating thing with mangas.

Oh how I envy you. In my town, and probably in my whole country you can barely find Japanese manga (and no, I don't want to read Ai Yori Aoshi and stuff like that however popular it may be), only the boring stuff. Anyhow, I ordered Claymore from nippon-export.com (seems like a really nice site, you write a letter, and they see if they can get what you desire). Now, I'll have to wait ages lol, since there are 13 volumes out, and Master Yagi publishes like 2 a year. So gg. waiting for reprint. You might ask why am I talking about myself... well hell knows.

magevampjoe · 4 Feb 2008

I don't know if this is allowed, but
Read Free Manga Online at One Manga. Online manga scans reader.
on this site you can read mangas (many full series's)
All pages are in an image format, so you could download the images, put em in a word document, print em out and as long as you don't distribute them I don't think you are breaking any laws.
That way, you can get manga stories easily.
People where you can buy manga easily - go and BUY it. This option is for people who can't get manga.

Hope I helped.

Haruspex · 5 Feb 2008

Thank You, im very grateful for your link, however, I like to hold books, it seems weird to read it from a separate page. Im the collector kind of person. Although, let me state this once more, im grateful for your link.

magevampjoe · 5 Feb 2008

You are welcome. I too like to hold books rather than see webpages, but it'll have to do, won't it?

A thought Derfel. If it is hard to get manga in Hungary (I think that is where you are), then why don't you buy manga online (in english or japanese) and sell it yourself part-time. You could make a bit of money locally from people you know.
Buy the manga online,
check price
add 1 of the hungarian currency onto it.
add cost that you paid for shipping.
sell for that price, making a small profit.

later.

Haruspex · 5 Feb 2008

That would work... it would work quite well. However, im located in Hungary's easternmost county, where anime equals dragonball without exception, and people still use the derogative term "mese" for it, which means fairy tale in Hungarian. I can't sell manga in such a cultural desert. Even that crappy Dragonball got banned (you can only get it on dvd) cause some cretin brat jumped outta the window thinking he could fly, another killed his friend to resurrect him with the crystal balls lol.
I appreciate your plan though. In 10 years time, I think it will be possible.
As for simply buying it... yes thats what im going to do. I cut off all my social bonds, so im 100% geek now, that means my budget is limited to geek stuff and games.

magevampjoe · 5 Feb 2008

Don't you mean 99% geek, 1% no-life?

derfel wa geekjin desu yo.

Joe

Haruspex · 5 Feb 2008

magevampjoe said:
Don't you mean 99% geek, 1% no-life?

derfel wa geekjin desu yo.

Joe

Both my geekness, and no-lifeness meters are maxed out, that means im 100-100, and it doesn't matter if its impossible.

saa, anata mo geekjin ka?

dohsetsu · 5 Feb 2008

Don't be THAT intimidated...this might help?

gOb, the links above might help you...

Ok, I guess I can't post links...makes sense actually, but go to kanjiclinic.com they have a Flash-based flashcard program that will really help your reading and basic understanding of Nihongo from beginning all the way to upper intermediate. Listen to what the other posters tell you, they are correct, but don't get overwhelmed. Your brain can only absorb as much as it is ready to at the time. Focus on your basic verbs first. They are important and you will understand why the more you learn.

Anyway, I studied Japanese in university and it helped, but not that much. I learned the majority of my functional Japanese while I was living there. You might have heard the advice to get a Japanese girlfriend/boyfriend (i don't know your gender or orientation, doesn't matter) if you want to learn Japanese, and while sex is an incredible motivator, guys run the risk of learning really "girly" Japanese and then using it because they don't know any better. I spent the better part of my first year in Japan hanging out with my Japanese co-workers, and basically being silent and just listening (I ate great food, drank a LOT, and tried to follow the conversation as best I could.) Try whatever phrases you hear and understand, ask them to let you order the food, etc, but the first part of the acquisition process consists of listening and imitating. (You can use this knowledge to help you teach better, too!)
I also found that on my off days, in the evenings, watching Japanese TV helped a LOT. Not the programs, you won't be able to follow those, but the ads. Being what they are, they have to be repetitive, catchy, and they really have to be understood by a mass audience so they generally don't use slang. Therefore, the vocabulary you acquire becomes very useful--"clean", "bright","helpful", "efficient", "cheap", "long lasting", you get the picture. It's not for everybody, but that helped me out.
The most useful thing you can do, though, is try to live a Japanese version of your life. Spent time with Japanese people. They are intensely interested in foreigners and will make time to be with you and are willing to help you understand their culture and language. Be patient. Japanese is not at all as difficult as people make it out to be, but it is VERY different, structurally as well as practically. I cannot tell you how many gits I have seen waltz into a year contract who don't learn Japanese and expect the world outside of them "Americanize/Canadianize/Austrailianize/Englandize" around them. It's a shame. I lived in Japan for three years, I learned (what I think) is passable Japanese, I'm certainly not fluent, but I made some great friends who I still have to this day and visit me in SF, and I have some really wonderful memories. Besides the weak salary they pay you, that's what you're there for, right? Soak it up and have fun. Eat some "weird food". Go on an awkward date. Participate in some matsuris. Learn i-Go from an old man. Enjoy it!

g0b · 5 Feb 2008

dohsetsu said:
gOb, the links above might help you...
Ok, I guess I can't post links...makes sense actually, but go to kanjiclinic.com they have a Flash-based flashcard program that will really help your reading and basic understanding of Nihongo from beginning all the way to upper intermediate. Listen to what the other posters tell you, they are correct, but don't get overwhelmed. Your brain can only absorb as much as it is ready to at the time. Focus on your basic verbs first. They are important and you will understand why the more you learn.
Anyway, I studied Japanese in university and it helped, but not that much. I learned the majority of my functional Japanese while I was living there. You might have heard the advice to get a Japanese girlfriend/boyfriend (i don't know your gender or orientation, doesn't matter) if you want to learn Japanese, and while sex is an incredible motivator, guys run the risk of learning really "girly" Japanese and then using it because they don't know any better. I spent the better part of my first year in Japan hanging out with my Japanese co-workers, and basically being silent and just listening (I ate great food, drank a LOT, and tried to follow the conversation as best I could.) Try whatever phrases you hear and understand, ask them to let you order the food, etc, but the first part of the acquisition process consists of listening and imitating. (You can use this knowledge to help you teach better, too!)
I also found that on my off days, in the evenings, watching Japanese TV helped a LOT. Not the programs, you won't be able to follow those, but the ads. Being what they are, they have to be repetitive, catchy, and they really have to be understood by a mass audience so they generally don't use slang. Therefore, the vocabulary you acquire becomes very useful--"clean", "bright","helpful", "efficient", "cheap", "long lasting", you get the picture. It's not for everybody, but that helped me out.
The most useful thing you can do, though, is try to live a Japanese version of your life. Spent time with Japanese people. They are intensely interested in foreigners and will make time to be with you and are willing to help you understand their culture and language. Be patient. Japanese is not at all as difficult as people make it out to be, but it is VERY different, structurally as well as practically. I cannot tell you how many gits I have seen waltz into a year contract who don't learn Japanese and expect the world outside of them "Americanize/Canadianize/Austrailianize/Englandize" around them. It's a shame. I lived in Japan for three years, I learned (what I think) is passable Japanese, I'm certainly not fluent, but I made some great friends who I still have to this day and visit me in SF, and I have some really wonderful memories. Besides the weak salary they pay you, that's what you're there for, right? Soak it up and have fun. Eat some "weird food". Go on an awkward date. Participate in some matsuris. Learn i-Go from an old man. Enjoy it!

Thanks for this reply, it has been quite informative. If I can learn the Kata/Hana before I go then that'll be a bonus over other people when looking for jobs I suppose (aswell as a TEFL certificate)

Just out of curiosity now, how as your experience in getting a job in Japan? Do they really want gaijin with poor Japanese teaching English? What kind of job would I need to get by?

Also become a little scared since seeing a few videos on Youtube on Japan's view on foreigners. Resteraunts etc with signs outside saying "No gaijin." Just saying that after I read "They are intensely interested in foreigners" Interested + racist? Mm..

All a bit intimidating...

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