senseiman said:If you were to detonate a Hirsohima sized bomb on downtown LA, the number of people killed would almost definitely be greater.
Percentages like that mean nothing. Hiroshima is a very compact city which had a population of 350,000 at the time. LA is a sprawling metropolis with suburbs extending over hundreds of square miles.
Do you have proof of this ? Even 2ndary that might point to the primary proof ? Anything ?vorpar said:This is demonstrably untrue. 3 days before that week was up, the Japanese had successfully tested their own atomic bomb. It was planned to be used on the nearly 1 million person strong invasion of Kyushu.Silverpoint referring to a lady historian on BBC Hiroshima debate said:"She said that if Truman had waited even one week longer, there may never have been a need to drop the bombs."
vorpar said:This is demonstrably untrue. 3 days before that week was up, the Japanese had successfully tested their own atomic bomb. It was planned to be used on the nearly 1 million person strong invasion of Kyushu.
vorpar said:3 days before that week was up, the Japanese had successfully tested their own atomic bomb.
It was planned to be used on the nearly 1 million [sic. > 3.5 million] person strong invasion of Kyushu.
If there was any real knowledge that the Japanese had a bomb, this would have been a propaganda gift for Truman in his argument for ending the war quickly.
(c) 2005 Independent News & Media (UK) Ltd.By David McNeill in Hiroshima said:'My God, what have we done?' - the commander of the 'Enola Gay'
Sixty years ago tomorrow, the crew of the Enola Gay watched in awe as their payload detonated over the city of Hiroshima. "As the bomb exploded, we saw the entire city disappear," said Commander Robert Lewis. "I wrote in my log, 'My God, what have we done?'"
Below, thousands of people were instantly carbonised in a blast that was thousands of times hotter than the sun's surface; further from the epicentre, birds ignited in mid-flight, eyeballs popped and internal organs were sucked from bodies of victims.
By the end of the day an estimated 160,000 were dead or injured and the bomb's "ghosts" walked the city - thousands of initial survivors who would die within days, often with the word mizu -water - on their lips. Many more subsequently died - and are still dying - from various cancers.
Harry Truman, the then President of the Unites States who had ordered Hiroshima destroyed, later said: "We have discovered the most terrible weapon in the history of the world," but steadfastly defended its use and said it had ultimately saved lives.
In March this year, Paul Tibbets, the pilot of the Enola Gay, also said the bomb had saved lives. Asked whether he had any regrets, he said: "Hell no, no second thoughts. If you give me the same circumstances, hell yeah, I'd do it again."
J Robert Oppenheimer, the brilliant scientist who oversaw the building of the bomb, was more ambiguous about his creation. He famously said after the first test detonation: "Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds."
Truman's successor, President Dwight Eisenhower, also had reservations. In a 1963 interview with Newsweek magazine, he said: "The Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing." Some thought that Imperial Japan, like Nazi Germany, deserved what it got for the brutal, relentless bombing of Shanghai and Chongqing, the Rape of Nanjing and other war atrocities across Asia. But others asked where had the moral high ground of the Allies gone since President Franklin D Roosevelt described the 1940 Nazi blitzkrieg of British cities as "inhuman barbarism"?
"No one seemed conscious of the irony," wrote the US historian Howard Zinn. "One of the reasons for the general indignation against the fascist powers was their history of indiscriminate bombing of civilian populations."
Tomorrow morning, Hiroshima will sidestep the endless debates over whether the bombing was justified and concentrate on commemorating the victims, in a ceremony swelled by thousands of foreign visitors and dominated by fresh concerns that the world is forgetting the lessons learnt here.
"I'm less resentful about what happened in Hiroshima than I am about America's wars today," says Kazuko Kojima, who was born two days after the bomb fell, in a cellar filled with the dead and dying victims. "Why don't they stop? Aren't there better ways to solve problems? The reason people go to war is because they don't understand the feelings of others."
Article Length: 448 words (approx.)
vorpar said:It was tested at a research facility in Korea. You're right, they sent the scientists away since nothing could get done during the American bombing.
The Japanese Bomb And Why It Matters (pdf)Japan had been trying to build its own nuclear bombs since at least as far back as 1938, upon hearing of German success in splitting the atom.
He recounted the appointment by the Imperial Japanese Army of Dr. Nishina Yoshio ﾂ仁窶ｰﾃ遺?擢窶悩 ---one of the world's foremost nuclear physicists and a former student of Neils Bohr---to head the bomb assembly effort at the national science academy, Tokyo's Riken Institute.
Research proceeded at a relatively leisurely pace until the tide of war turned against Japan, after which the Army and, later, the Navy began pouring more and more resources into building a working device and turning it into a practical weapon.
When American B-29s arrived to firebomb mainland cities, the program was disrupted and had to be largely evacuated and reconstituted in Korea, at Hungnam 窶ｹﾂｻ窶愿ｬ (Jap. Konan), where Japanese zaibatsu colonial entrepreneurs (such as Noguchi Shitagau 窶禿ｬﾅ津ｻ ﾂ鞘?ｦ, 1873-1944) had built a gigantic military industrial complex after taking control of the area in the 1904-5 Russo-Japanese War.
It was here, Wakabayashi claimed, that the Japanese atomic bomb, the genzai bakudan ﾅ陳ｴﾅｽq窶敘｡ﾅ甜 (ﾂ"greatest fighterﾂ" [sic. > "element bomb"]) was completed and test-fired on August 12, just after Nagasaki. He said it would have been finished three months earlier had it not been for the B-29s, which he considered to have been the decisive weapon in the war.
Alas for Japan, there was only enough uranium fuel to power the test detonation, and with the Soviets bearing down on Hungnam 窶ｹﾂｻ窶愿ｬ (Jap. Konan)---the largest industrial installation in all of Asia at that time---the decision was made to abandon the project and destroy as much of it as possible.
Much documentation accordingly vanished, along with several bomb casings for additional, not yet completed genzai bakudan ﾅ陳ｴﾅｽq窶敘｡ﾅ甜, but the Soviet advance was so fast and overwhelming that most of the complex fell into Russian hands intact, and a number of prominent Japanese atomic scientists were captured---and, later, ruthlessly tortured."
Japan's Atomic Bomb: We almost lost all a personal account by Leon ThompsonSupposedly...studies advanced to making one or two little experimental atomic artefacts in Hungnam 窶ｹﾂｻ窶愿ｬ (Konan) Installations in Korea 窶卍ｩ窶朗 (Chosen), using the heavy water facilities provided for Noguchi Zaibatsu, and test-fired just after the final of war this in the Eastern Sea (Sea of Japan). Other versions mentions why these experiments continuing in Manchukuo and the test-fire was carried out in East Gobi desert in Hsingan province with support of Unit 731. (words edited for diction)
I believe you mean August 12, 1945. From what I read, the atomic bomb testing might not have been successful. What makes you (or your sources) conclude that the a-bomb testing was a success ? Besides, even if the testing was a success, those happened AFTER the dropping of fat-man and little-boy. So in principle, the testing which occurred later could not have influenced the US decision to "nuke 'em" both of which which occurred earlier than the alleged Japanese testing.vorpar said:This is demonstrably untrue. 3 days before that week was up, the Japanese had successfully tested their own atomic bomb.Silverpoint referring to a lady historian on BBC Hiroshima debate said:"She said that if Truman had waited even one week longer, there may never have been a need to drop the bombs."
Could you be more specific on that piece of info ?It was planned to be used on the nearly 1 million [sic. > 3.5 million] person strong invasion of Kyushu... In hindsight, the bombings turned out to stop the war immediately, but I don't know that I can justify them with the knowledge that they had at the time.
He is definitely the spearhead of the theory now. Are you aware of any new evidence he was able to muster in his new 1995 edition after the 1985 edition ?Wilcox, Rober K. Japan's Secret War. New York: Marlowe & Co., 1995
Pictorial History of the Second World War, vol. 5. New York: Wm. H. Wise & Co., 1970
Parrott, Lindsay. "Five Cyclotrons Wrecked in Japan." New York Times, Novermber 24, 1945.
(additional stories on Nov 26, 29 and Dec 5, 6, 14, and 15.)
The existence of cyclotrons doesn't mean a thing in itself; in fact there areThe book I'm reading has a photo of one of the cyclotrons being disposed of by the US military. Jack Seward's Strange But True Stories from Japan.
22 countries listed here for illustration that have the more advanced version of the cyclotron, and hence those that could be considered comparable to Japan having 5 cyclotrons back in 1945. Now they don't all have nuclear bombs, do they ?Particle Accelerators and Accelerator Laboratories around the World on Electron accelerator ELSA page
This is not a complete list in that it only counts major particle accelerator lab sites; often one lab will have more than one accelerator, but is counted as one.
Argentina 1
Belgium 1
Brazil 1
Canada 2
China 1
Denmark 1
Finland 1
France 5
Germany 21
India 3
Italy 8
Japan 6
Jordan 1
South Korea 1
Netherlands 1
Russian Federation 6
South Africa 1
Switzerland 8
Sweden 4
Taiwan 1
UK 3
USA 34
There are claims being made in Korean sources, so the possiblity does deserve some attention. While some of the arguments and evidence rely on either the original Snell report or the studies done by Robert Wilcox, there are certain independent studies with evidence from Hungnam workers who now reside in South Korea.Silverpoint said:Korea, China et. al. need no excuses to criticize Japan's wartime atrocities. If there had been any testing of nuclear weapons on Korean soil, I'm pretty sure it would be at the forefront of any debate and other countries would never let Japan forget about it, yet I've never heard a word come out of Korea about this.
Mike Cash said:I've left the opinion unstated thus far in hopes of seeing if there are those who go beyond the obvious when looking at this issue and seeing what ideas others might have regarding what self-serving interest Japan might have in continuing to focus on the two atomic bombings practically to the exclusion of any other aspect of World War Two and in what way this course may have affected international relations between Japan and her neighboring countries over the last sixty years.
Three pieces of information say;Silverpoint said:And where exactly was this bomb tested ? You need an extremely large amount of space to test a bomb. Testing one in Japan would be nearly impossible due to the densely populated environment. The Japanese were being pinned back on every front, so it's unlikely they could have taken it overseas for testing. I'm curious as to where exactly this device went off and why there is no mention of it in any official records.
Wikipedia said:Supposedly...studies advanced to making one or two little experimental atomic artefacts in Hungnam 窶ｹﾂｻ窶愿ｬ (Konan) Installations in Korea 窶卍ｩ窶朗 (Chosen)... these experiments continuing in Manchukuo and the test-fire was carried out in East Gobi desert in Hsingan province with support of Unit 731. (words edited for diction)
What you say could be the case, however N.Korea, including Hungnam, was captured by the USSR, together with the plans, scientists, technicians, facilities, and materials if they existed. Either Truman was not aware of Hungnam's importance, underestimated the Soviets, or was too embarassed to make public the Japanese atomic program in Hungnam, Korea, code name "*NZ PROJECT."Silverpoint said:The original argument for creating the bomb was because Germany was considered to be close to developing one, so the Allies knew they had to develop the technology first. If there was any real knowledge that the Japanese had a bomb, this would have been a propaganda gift for Truman in his argument for ending the war quickly.
True, but the revised 1995 Robert Wilcox book seems to present some gov'tal/intelligence documents that support the Hungnam atomic bomb testing.Silverpoint said:Yet, no one at the time, or since in an official capacity has ever used this argument that I'm aware of.
While the "nuclear test" being referred to at the time involved only 0.7 grams of plutonium and 0.2 grams of a uranium isotope to study the chemical properties, the headline gave the impression of a "nuclear warhead detonating test" causing international uproars.the government has argued that the tests were on too small a scale to be significant and only 0.7g of plutonium and 200mg of uranium were produced...
The report said that South Korean scientists had enriched a small amount of uranium to 77% uranium-235, which is close to weapons-grade.
However, it said the average enrichment during the uranium experiments was about 10.2%.
The report stated that the IAEA had found no indications that the experiments had gone beyond small-scale laboratory activities.
There was also a German economic historian Rainer Karlsch who published Hitler's Bomb. He claimed that German scientists "set off a test explosion two months before the end of World War II, killing hundreds of people in eastern Germany." He also claimed that "the March 1945 device didn't achieve fission, but did scatter telltale radioactive particles at the Ohrdruf test site. It also claims that Nazi Germany briefly had a working nuclear reactor."Silverpoint said:Recently a "historian" in the UK published a book claiming that Germany had also developed a bomb, but his arguments were widely discredited. He put up what seemed like a reasonably sound argument to someone reading his book. But when you looked at the bigger picture, he had been incredibly selective with the truth in order to build a case.
Jeremy Bernstein, who edited the Farm Hall transcripts for the book "Hitler's Uranium Club: The Secret Recordings at Farm Hall," said a key question was where the enriched uranium could have come from.
"To enrich uranium, you need an plant the size of Oak Ridge, and the Germans never had one," he said, referring to the sprawling U.S. facility that produced enriched uranium for the Hiroshima bomb.
Copyright ©1996 - 2005 COMBATSIM.COM, Inc.INVASION JAPAN -PART 4: The definitive defensive weapon and some conclusions.
NIPPONESE NUKES
Ok so lots of people have heard that the Germans were working on nuclear physics with the ultimate aim of creating an atomic bomb, right ? The 1.8 billion dollar Manhattan Project to produce the A-bombs that effectively ended the war is well known. What about Japanese endeavors in nuclear bombs ? You thought there were none? Think again.
The chief persona of the Japanese atomic program was Dr. Yoshio Nishina who was an intimate associate of Albert Einstein. Dr. Nishina foundeded his own Nishina Laboratory of the Institute for Physical and Chemical Research in 1931 to study high-energy physics. He built the first cyclotron in Japan in 1936. It was a 26-incher. A 60-inch, 220 ton cyclotron was built in 1937. In 1938 Japan also purchased a cyclotron from the University of California, Berkeley. Cyclotrons were used to separate fissionable material from uranium.
Nishida understood the military potential of nuclear weapons, and figured that the Americans were working on a genzai bakudan (atomic bomb). Unlike his counterpart, Heisenberg in Germany, he wholeheartedly sought to solve the atomic riddle and produce a weapon. In 1939, President Roosevelt funded the first nuclear studies into fissionable weapons in the United States. This prompted the patriotic Dr. Nishina to match the U.S. research and develop a nuclear weapon. Lt. General Takeo Yasuda of the Japanese Army decided in October 1940, that such a weapons program was worthy of study and the Japanese atomic program commenced in July 1941 under the guidance of Dr. Nishina.
The well-know rivalry between the Japanese Army and Navy diluted strength of production projects as each insisted their own weapon was of paramount importance even if it was nearly identical to the other's. They perpetually wasted manpower and resources duplicating efforts. So it was in atomic research.
A completely separate atomic program run by the Japanese Navy was in simultaneous study in 1942. The project was called ﾂ"F-Goﾂ" and was headed by Professor Bunsaku Arakatsu, who studied under Albert Einstein. Arakatsu built his own cyclotron too.
The Navy's plan wisely was to harness nuclear energy as an power source in order to reduce the dependence on petroleum. As the war unfolded not favoring Japan the idea of making a nuclear weapon became more promising. Initially it was assumed that an atomic weapon could not be developed during the limited span of time of the war.
A search for uranium throughout the empire commenced. The Japanese military took what Nishina had learned so far and expanded the program. The Navy payed large amounts for uranium on the Chinese black market. And we know about U-234's unsuccessful attempt to transport uranium oxide to Japan from Germany. How far the Navy project progressed is a matter of conjecture but a member of the team was Hideki Yukawa, the first Japanese physicist to receive a Nobel Prize in 1949.
So where did the uranium ore come from? The atomic programs found a source of uranium ore in Korea. Dr. Nishina experimented with a number of methods for enriching the uranium and decided that the gaseous diffusion method was the most rewarding. Colonel Tatsusaburo Suzuki coordinated the effort for the Army and built five advanced gaseous diffusion separators based on the smaller one developed by Nishina. The fate of these separators is a mystery.
In 1938 Germany and Japan met to discuss the feasibility of the production of atomic weapons and atomic energy. Theories were explored but techinal data was not exchanged at that time. Japan later requested assistance from ally Germany but it is not known how much material Japan received. This is lost to history. All we know of for sure is the one shipment of uranium oxide that was intercepted on U-234 just after VE Day.
The program was moved from Nagoya to Konan, Korea (North Korea now) in 1943 due to increasing bombing attacks. Some 40,000 worked at the facility 25,000 of whom were engineers and scientists. The facility was partly underground. About 400 worked in the underground cave area on the most sensitive aspects of the bomb. A project director coordinated with six other reknown scientists each contributing but one phase and unaware of the others.
By August 10, 1945 the Hiroshima blast had taken place so the men assembling the bomb worked quickly. If an Allied invasion was imminent Japan would need the A-bomb to make toast of the forthcoming American invasion armada. Stalin declared war on Japan on August 8th and with enough reinforcements free from European combat Russians crossed the Manchurian border.
After midnight the device was trucked to the Konan harbor. It was loaded aboard a small vessel and final preparations were undertaken for the test. Presumably an anchorage in an inlet some twenty miles away was to be the unsuspecting and unwilling live target area. It was filled with mostly wooden fishing boats and ships with sails.
The boat with the device was robot controlled and it puttered towards the anchorage before dawn on August 12th. The vessel beached itself just as the sun's first rays of the day hit the water. The genzai bakudan triggered and the observers wearing welding goggles gasped at the immediate intense burst of light rivaling the sun.
The fire flash was about 1,000 yards in diameter and from it a mushroom cloud boiled up to the stratosphere. The vaporized water obscured the anchored vessels but most of them were burning. When the epicenter cleared some ships previously seen were completely gone without trace. The area of destruction was approximately one square mile.
But it was all too late. The Russians were hours away and the equipment at the Konan facility was smashed and the underground entrances blown up. The scientists were unable to escape and at least the top men were spirited away to Moscow for torture. The Soviets closed up the area quickly and tightly. American War Reparations personnel later were kept under constant supervision and restricted from many areas. Even a B-29 with humanitarian supplies was shot down by the itchy Russians.
On Aug. 29, 1945, an American B-29 piloted by a Lt. Jose H. Queen of Ashland, KY headed for Konan with a cargo of food and medical supplies. They were to be dropped over an Allied prisoner of war camp there. Four Yak fighters from nearby Hammung Airfield circled the B-29 and signaled the pilot to land on the too-small airstrip.
Queen did not obey and swung the big plane around to return to Saipan. Ten miles off the coast the Yaks opened up and the B-29 went down. All twelve disembarked safely but one Yak strafed and missed the radio operator. The Russians said they saw the American markings but since the Germans had used captured American planes they thought the Japanese might also. Remember this was two weeks after the official end of hostilities.
While the consensus of the Americans was that the Japanese could have been nowhere near producing an atomic bomb, that even the Germans were farther advanced, it is curious what this conclusion is based upon since no American has ever inspected the Konan facilities ! It was a dangerous game to underestimate your enemy as the Allies found in December 1944 when the Ardennes Offensive (Battle of the Bulge) shocked the Americans to the realization that they could still lose the war. When the kamikazes became a horrifying reality in a divine wind over Okinawa there was no defense for them. There were no intelligence reports on either event to suggest the Allies were not taken completely by surprise.
Yoshio Nishina died in 1951. Since World War II the Konan area has been either in Soviet or North Korean hands so no look-see has ever been possible. It has been determined that heavy water was shipped out of the area in the 1950s to Russia.
At any rate, the Japanese could very well have had the capability of cobbling together a dirty bomb that did not create a chain reaction explosion but would rather dispense radioactive material into the vicinity of the target point, as the Germans could have done. Let us guess if they would have used it over Kyushu.
Snell, David
Japan Developed Atom Bomb; Russia Grabbed Scientists
Atlanta Constitution Oct 2, 1946
Wilcox, Robert K.
Japan's Secret War: Japan's Race Against Time to Build Its Own Atomic Bomb Morrow Publishing, NY 1985
Wikipedia said:The Political department and Epidemic Prevention Research Laboratory, now usually associated with the name Unit 731, was initially set up as a political and ideological section of the Kempeitai military police of pre-Pacific War Japan. It was meant to counter the ideological or political influence of enemies, and to reinforce the ideology of military units.
It worked through political propaganda and as ideological representative of the Imperial Japanese Army's Kodoha ﾂ皇窶慊ｹ窶拮 (Imperial way faction, or war party). In the first phase this section drove against communist propaganda, but extended its responsibilities in other directions, at home and overseas.
It acted in Manchukuo and other areas on the Asian mainland. It was a rough equivalent to the NKVD political sections and or politruk (political commissar) units of the Soviets; or the German Nazi SS propoganda departments. They promoted racial superiority, racialist theories, counterespionage, intelligence, political sabotage and infiltration of enemy lines. They liased with the Manchukuo military police, the Manchu intelligence service, regular Manchu police, Manchu Residents committees, Local Nationalist Manchu Parties and the Japanese Secret Service detachment in Manchukuo. The section in Manchukuo used some agents from White Russian, Chinese, Manchu, Mongol and other foreign backgrounds for special services or covert actions at home and abroad.
Epidemic Prevention Research Laboratory (Unit 731)
The founder of Unit 731 was General Ishii Shiro. Ishii was placed in command of the Army Epidemic Prevention Research Laboratory located in Tokyo Headquarters in 1932. This laboratory concentrated on chemical warfare and biological warfare. He later organized the satellite laboratory in Harbin and set up the Manchu railway lines for transport of materials and equipment. Ishii organized the secret research group "Togo Unit", for the conduct of chemical and biological investigations in Bei-inho village (100 km south of Harbin). This site is the Zhongma Fortress.
This unit later was integrated into the Kwantung Army as Epidemic Prevention Department, but divided at the same time as the "Ishii Unit" and "Wakamatsu Unit" with a base in Hsinking. From 1941 on all these units were known collectively as "Epidemic Prevention and Water Purification Department of the Kwantung Army", or "Unit 731" for short. They had support from the Imperial Youth Corps, Japanese university research, and the Kempeitai. Some sources link them with the Mitsui zaibatsu monopoly on poppy farming in Manchukuo (for production of heroin).
Other facilities under the direction of 731 Unit were:
Special Operations Units
Units with special and Unknown assignments in Manchuria and the Asian mainland. It has been suggested that nuclear research was conducted in Manchuria towards the end of the war by this branch
End of the war
Operations and experiments continued until the end of the war. With the Russian invasion of Manchukuo and Mengjiang in August 1945, these units mentioned above had to abandon their work in haste. All members of these units and their families fled across Manchuria and China to return to Japan. Behind them they left skeleton crews to hide evidence of atrocities. All facilities were to be demolished with explosives, but most were so well constructed that they survived somewhat intact as testimony to what happened there.
Ishii commanded that every member of the group take the secret of their experiments to the grave with them, threatening to find them if they failed, and ordering none of them to go into public work back in Japan. All infected rats, bacteria cultures, and human prisoners were killed and the evidence quickly destroyed. Potassium cyanide vials were issued in event the remaining personnel were captured.