A question to stump even experts.

How do you say "goth music," as in the genre, in Japanese?

Or, assuming there is no word for it, how do you explain it? It's not like most
Japanese have ever heard of Bauhaus or The Cure.

I think ゴシックロック or ゴシックメタル would come pretty close.

It's not like the entire country's population never leave Japan's borders or watch TV. Don't be so naive.

Naive?

I have yet to meet a Japanese person who has heard of Bauhaus or Robert Smith, and the few who have heard of The Cure know only the name.

And most of the (dozen or so) people I've tried to describe Goth to have been musicians themselves. There are definitely goth musicians in Japan (both foreign and Japanese acts), but JGoth is still a fringe niche, no question.

You can keep the insult, but thanks for the help! I'll try ゴシックロック next time and see if that works.

It certainly is a fringe music subculture -- meaning most Japanese don't know -- but here it is on the Web:

ゴス｜エキサイトミュージック

I'm too old for this, but I've got experts in the family...

epigene said:

It certainly is a fringe music subculture -- meaning most Japanese don't know -- but here it is on the Web:
[website]
I'm too old for this, but I've got experts in the family...

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Meaning you have kids, I presume.

Thanks.

Unfortunately, that's the word I have been using, and which is always met with blank stares.

Unfortunately Goth music is hard to refer to. Taking bands like cradle of filth, they use a lot of stuff which seems to be influenced greatly by opera and music back in the 1800s, Victorian Era. A lot of 'Gothic Lolita' clothes seem to be majorly based on victorian clothing. So if you are explaining to a person who doesn't know about gothic music, I suggest you mix:

Modern,
Victorian
Rock
and Awesome to your descriptions.

Something that bugs me about the whole 'Gothic' scene in Japan is the whole thing.
Gothic Lolita clothing is influenced mainly by victorian and goth clothing (Although I've yet to see an overcoat on a japanese person - if you know a pic, please give the link )
They seem to mix Gothic and Emo(Wrist Cutters) together, although they are not the same.
For most goths, the definition of gothism is to love their life and hate everything except some things, mainly sadistic and adult stuff, plus the dark world (Sanguinarians, Zombies etc)
Emo's hate themselves and everything, have no actual pride or anything, which leads to self-harming. Or they want attention or to 'fit in' with the other emos.
Japan's version of goth mixes this up, very incorrectly.
Plus Japan don't give off very good goth or rock music, decent Rock comes from America and decent goth metal comes from the UK and Germany.

The only thing for me that Japan cannot beat about the west is the gothic music.
That is all.
I will stop rambling now
じゃまた

gibbousmoon said:

Naive?

I have yet to meet a Japanese person who has heard of Bauhaus or Robert Smith, and the few who have heard of The Cure know only the name.

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YES YES YES YES YES.... Yes, you're naieve... It's not some sort of oddity that people listen to music made outside of Japan... It may not be as prevalent because a) It's in English, and many Japanese do not like to listen to music whose lyrics are hard to translate... and, b) It's Goth music... I don't know a lot of people who listen to it in the United States--- I grew up in the 80's when Bauhaus was definitely fringe, and it's STILL fringe... Most people now listen to crap like Muderdolls, and whatever else constitutes as that type of mall-core...

To assuage your fears, my ex was one of the hugest goth fans I've met of late in or out of Japan, and I doubt that she is some sort of outlier....

You're the one who thought it was such an expert-stumping question asking how to say Gothic in Japanese...

gibbousmoon said:

And most of the (dozen or so) people I've tried to describe Goth to have been musicians themselves.

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Sounds like you've done a pretty extensive survey on the subject.

gibbousmoon said:

[...]but JGoth is still a fringe niche, no question.

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What the hell is JGoth, some word that white people use to make up a trend they think exists in Japan?

gibbousmoon said:

You can keep the insult, but thanks for the help!

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You're the one who's insulting suggesting the Japanese are ignorant of outside culture.

After attending a goth event in Tokyo, I talked with one of the Japanese attendees about the types of music we liked. He said he was a big fan of ポジティブ・パンク. I had no idea what it was and he had to list bands. Turns out, his concept of "positive punk" encompasses a lot of the gothic rock bands of the '80s. I'm not sure it's a common term but if the other labels are getting blank stares, it might be worth trying.

yukio_michael, your post gave me a chuckle. I've been hanging around and making music with Japanese musicians (most of whom barely speak a word of English) for years. You, on the other hand, based on your comment about Japanese people not enjoying music in English, are, well... somewhat lacking, to put it gently, in your knowledge about Japanese music tastes. Which is fine, I'm not bashing your lack of knowledge--hell knows, we all have gaps in our knowledge, and some of mine are huge.

But I do have three suggestions for you, and I hope you won't be too offended to follow them:

1. Learn to spell the word "naive" before you run around calling people it.

2. Stop trying so hard to convince others of how ignorant they are of jgoth saturation in Japan, if you don't even know what the word means.

yukio_michael said:

You're the one who's insulting suggesting the Japanese are ignorant of outside culture.

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3. Don't put words in other people's mouths. It doesn't work, and it's even less effective in written communication than in spoken.

inertia said:

After attending a goth event in Tokyo, I talked with one of the Japanese attendees about the types of music we liked. He said he was a big fan of ポジティブ・パンク.. I had no idea what it was and he had to list bands. Turns out, his concept of "positive punk" encompasses a lot of the gothic rock bands of the '80s. I'm not sure it's a common term but if the other labels are getting blank stares, it might be worth trying.

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Now *that's* very interesting. I have yet to explore the connotations of the word ﾆ恥ﾆ停?愴誰 with anyone (mostly because I don't play punk rock or listen to it much, unless you count late post punk, which I don't), but it'd be interesting to know what baggage it does and doesn't carry, since the word carries so much in English.

dark_secrester said:

Plus Japan don't give off very good goth or rock music, decent Rock comes from America and decent goth metal comes from the UK and Germany.

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I see where you're coming from and I agree on some levels that that's true, but I think it largely depends on the decade. The United States was the better scene for rock in the 90's imho, largely due to the Seattle scene and those groups influenced by it. But you'd have a hard time convincing me of the same thing when it comes to the late 70's through the late 80's. I won't say anything about this decade, since we're still in it. But I can only agree with your statement that the best goth metal comes from Germany. That's practically axiomatic. ; )

Not just from Germany. UK as well. Cradle of Filth are possibly the best, well, thats my opinion, and most of the other people I know...

Germany is awesome though, I went to see some goth bands there last month, but I can't remember any of their names, I was out of my face on booze for the entire duration of the trip

Whether it was intended as an insult or not, the word "naive" clearly fits one who thinks his own experience covers an entire country's knowledge and that if he doesn't know something then not even "experts" will.

gibbousmoon said:

yukio_michael, your post gave me a chuckle. I've been hanging around and making music with Japanese musicians (most of whom barely speak a word of English) for years. You, on the other hand, based on your comment about Japanese people not enjoying music in English, are, well... somewhat lacking, to put it gently, in your knowledge about Japanese music tastes. Which is fine, I'm not bashing your lack of knowledge--hell knows, we all have gaps in our knowledge, and some of mine are huge.

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You are the one whom seems to be ignorant on the ideas of the conceptualizations of what constitutes 'gothic' in Japan... I'm sorry, but I don't care whom you've been making music with... my studies lie outside of simply my personal friends... Lean to understand the recording industry in Japan, and how American artists influence it... how many gothic artists are important in Iceland? What's the point, there is none, it's moot as far as the Japanese are concerned.

gibbousmoon said:

1. Learn to spell the word "naive" before you run around calling people it.

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You understood my typo, so don't be such an *** by pointing it out... do you think your spelling correcting trumps my accusation?

gibbousmoon said:

2. Stop trying so hard to convince others of how ignorant they are of jgoth saturation in Japan, if you don't even know what the word means.

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What in the world is Jgoth, Jfolk, Jrock, JAmbient... to hell with all of that... you're adopting these Western ideas to a Japanese society that doesn't even support them... it's you who are ignorant about the contextualization of music in Japan. These are not isolated opinions, many marketing experts have voiced the same opinions...

gibbousmoon said:

3. Don't put words in other people's mouths. It doesn't work, and it's even less effective in written communication than in spoken.

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I interpret your words, not change them, you are the one who has spoken them.

Keep it civil, guys!

yukio_michael said:

a) It's in English, and many Japanese do not like to listen to music whose lyrics are hard to translate...

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How stupid of me to think that Japanese people like music in English.

yukio_michael said:

you're adopting these Western ideas to a Japanese society that doesn't even support them... it's you who are ignorant about the contextualization of music in Japan. These are not isolated opinions, many marketing experts have voiced the same opinions...

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I bow to your expertise and to all those marketing experts who apparently have also proclaimed that Japanese people don't like to listen to music in English, because the lyrics are hard to translate.

yukio_michael said:

Lean to understand the recording industry in Japan.

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Clearly I have been misled. Please forgive my blatant ignorance in believing otherwise.

yukio_michael said:

You're the one who's insulting suggesting the Japanese are ignorant of outside culture.

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Yes, claiming that Japanese people do indeed listen to music in English was very insulting of me. Suggesting that the average Japanese is not familiar with this niche genre (goth) was also very rude of me. Thank you for pointing that out.

yukio_michael said:

I interpret your words, not change them, you are the one who has spoken them.

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Thank you for not putting words in my mouth, and for interpreting them so courteously and intelligently.

yukio_michael said:

What the hell is JGoth, some word that white people use to make up a trend they think exists in Japan?

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And thank you for setting me straight. The Japanese goth bands I have heard are clearly figments of my (and others') imagination. I will check myself into a psychiatric ward the next time I hear such music.

yukio_michael said:

You're the one who thought it was such an expert-stumping question asking how to say Gothic in Japanese...

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Yes, of course. Most Japanese know exactly what goth music is. What in the world made me think otherwise?

yukio_michael said:

how many gothic artists are important in Iceland? What's the point, there is none, it's moot as far as the Japanese are concerned.

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Which of course is absolutely NO excuse for me to think the average Japanese might not know what goth music is! How racist of me!

The contents of your posts have revealed my utter ignorance in other ways as well; I hope you'll forgive me for not bothering to point them all out.

I defer to your superior reasoning and demonstrated expertise. Peace.

Thread closed.

Please PM me if you have any questions or concerns.